Need some "outsider" insight - dog-dog aggression (long)

Cakana:

As i mentioned in the post above, they will be separated when no one can supervise them - so there's one thing done right   And it's not necessarily that there are 2 dogs that can & will fight - because since their last one (2 days ago), dog #2 has been avoiding #1 completely. She's been hiding under the bed whenever #1 is around. Strangely, #1 is acting completely neutral to #2, as if nothing happened at all!

Am I correct in that these are not your dogs and you don't see these fights and how the family lives together with the dogs?

Encouraging play is best accomplished by exposing the dog to play situations such as observing other dogs play and interact with toys.  I had a foster who sat on the sidelines for 7 months and watch the other dogs play together or me playing with the other dogs.  Everyday I had an awareness of how important play is to a dog and each day I would try and entice the dog to join in.  It just happened one day where the dog decided to join in.  Also, on that same day, his fear of men, of me also vanquished and he came out from under the dining room table and stayed by my side.

I don't mean this in a negative way, but your posts seem to suggest it is the two dog's fault and the humans has no responsibility in the matter.  What exactly does the family do when a fight erupts?  Are the dog's trained to listen?  Has a behaviorist been called in to observe how the dog's interact and how the family interacts.   Did they do any research and read up on the different types of dog aggression. 

There are no quick answers in resolving dog aggression issues.  It requires an active involvement on a daily basis to vigilantly watch what is going on.  In the last large pack I had here, Marvin and Molsen, Marvin and Lexi, Molsen and Lexi, all had one fight a piece.  I attribute my reaction to their fight, basically scare the living daylights out of them that may have stopped future squabbles.  But before I would attempt something so negative, each dog had a very strong relationship/bond with me.

May I suggest going to the library and reading some of Brenda Aloff's book 'Aggression In Dogs'.  It gives good explanations of the different types of aggression behavior and the suggested resolutions may spark some ideas that you can apply.

Hi there, Something I noted from your description is that neither dog is interested in human interaction. I think one possible improvement here could be fostered by increasing their interest in the people in their lives and getting them into the habit of looking to people for direction rather than making random decisions on their own. I had a dog with very severe aggression problems (she's the one who sort of started me on my current journey). I learned with her, gradually, that the more she looked to me as The Source of All That Is Interesting, the less attention she paid to the things that bothered her for whatever reason (and she had a heck of a long list which changed daily - and no one got the memos!). We worked on NILIF, and Watch Me games, and I took obedience, agility, flyball, and herding lessons with her (we didn't have sheep then). My husband also competed heavily in Disc Dog with her, and we eventually ran on a flyball team as well. When Trim was bothered by something, she'd sit and stare at me and clearly communicate, "HELP!" Because I did help, our trust in each other snowballed as time went on. Today she is handled by an Amercian First Peoples individual - he's not an animal communicator but he says they have conversations all day long. She's also stone deaf at 12 years old, but can still work at her air force base posting because she is so in tune with her handler. This was a dog who had so little interest in people as a puppy, that she'd turn down food to stay off doing her own thing. When aggression happens, you have to stop it, but you can't just keep AT the dog at that moment - it's pointless. Adrenaline is running hot and the dog is not thinking. This is why I always suggest an indirect route which aims at offering some predictability to these dogs' lives, and thus raising their confidence and ability to communicate with you instead of taking matters into their own paws.

 DPU:

Actually one of the mentioned dogs is mine. So I am in the position to observe their interactions. I was present at all except the most recent fight (#1 attacking #2 when she walked in the front door). I refer to them as numbers because I have, in some posts, observed a "halo effect" towards members' dogs. I just want all responses to be as objective as possible. 

Dog #2 has viewed other dogs playing before, but is not interested in joining in. She would rather play with her owner.  I will try to get her into more situations with many other dogs playing - perhaps that will help.

When a fight erupts, the dogs are usually yelled at (natural human response, i suppose - which probably doesn't help the situation). They are then pulled apart, brought to separate areas, and checked for injury. Then the issue is dropped.

Dog #1 listens quite well, but Dog #2 often ignores commands. That is usually not a problem because she is a relaxed dog, and doesn't often misbehave. But when she does, you can't really stop her.

A behaviourist has not been called. If the issue gets worse, that is definitely an option. 

 And thank you for the book recommendation - i'll see if my library has it.
 

brookcove:

Actually dog #2 is very interested in human interaction - there's almost nothing she wants more. However, Dog #1 could definitely use improvement. We'll work on NILIF and watch me - it would be awesome if that helped. Thanks!

 Sierra,

Could you give us the breeds of the two dogs?

However, I do agree with Brookcove, that both you and the owner of the other dog should do some training, especially away from the house.  This not only get the dog more in tune with the humans, it will also help with the dogs insecurity issues.  Training, where they learn to understand what is expected of them in a given or new situation, helps build confidence in a dog.  In addition, it will help give you some control in situations where the dogs aggress.

 Dog #1 is a mutt - best guesses are Lab, Border Collie, Smooth Collie, German Shepherd, Pit Bull & Whippet. But she really doesn't strongly resemble any of these breeds - so it's anyone's guess.

Dog #2 is a purebred Border Collie, from working parents.

 

And another idea popped into my head today -

I'm thinking of maybe doing clicker training with Dog #1 (who seems, in my view, to be the likely instigator of the squabbles). The plan is to use Dog #2 as a source of treats & all that is good.. so Dog #1 gets treats for touching & sniffing Dog #2 in a calm & friendly manner. Then I might reverse the scenario, and click/treat Dog #2 for being friendly with Dog #1.

Is this a good idea? And any advice on which particular areas to click/treat for? (ie. where to sniff, where to touch, etc) 

 I would say (and this is very typical) that the problem also has to do with the fact that there are 2 different packs inside the same house:

1.-Dog # 1 and its owner

2.-Dog # 2 and its owner

Even when is understandable that you might be roomates the dogs dont see it that way, they might be even "fighting" for "territory" inside the house, i would say that both owners should consider both dogs as part of their own pack, it should not be "this dog is yours and this other dog is mine"

If both owners think that their own now 2 dogs (not just their own) the things will fall into place easily

Walking as a whole single pack is working, the owners mentality maybe changes once they are back home to the same: "this dog is yours and this other dog is mine"

Try the book "Click to Calm". I haven't read it, but I understand it is pretty much exactly what you say you want to do.  

 Wow.  Okay, so what I said above, but double.  These dogs, #2 in particular, need a game plan for their lives.  Border Collies really need structured routines or they will start making their own rules.  Many will be random to our eyes and most will not be compatible with peaceable family life!

I guess you could do the training you describe, but really all you need to do is increase any training at all, and with both of them not just one.  And increase the predictability of the rest of their lives - NILIF for both of them.  I mean, whoever is responsible for each dog.  If just one gets it and not the other, then either #1 will pick on the second for being "not in the pack" or #2 will jump the second for the "weakening" exercises you are subjecting him or her to.

 

 There's nothing wrong with making the one dog the predictor of all things good for the other dog, but I do that simultaneously, and do not try to artificially alter their status. So, for example, I might hand out treats, but will feed both dogs carefully, one from each hand, taking care that nothing drops on the floor.  If you don't think you can do that, then have them both lap from a frozen container of baby food, or a tube of squeeze peanut butter.  You don't want to cause an altercation over the food, you just want them to think that they only get the really good stuff when they are - you guessed it - TOGETHER AND CALM.  I also make myself the most powerful - by training each dog individually to a higher level of obedience. 

 What spiritdogs said ^ ^ ^

Also, I would utilise crates to the max for this one.  I would train each dog to LOVE the crate.  Then I would rub each dog down with a towel or blanket  and put it in the other dog's bed, with something like a stuffed frozem Kong.  This way, the dog comes to associate the scent of the other dog as a pleasant, good thing.  Dogs "see" the world with their noses, so associating teh other dogs smell with "good stuff" is beneficial.... and it also means you have no chance of any alteraction over the food you are providing.

sierra2002

I'm thinking of maybe doing clicker training with Dog #1 (who seems, in my view, to be the likely instigator of the squabbles). The plan is to use Dog #2 as a source of treats & all that is good.. so Dog #1 gets treats for touching & sniffing Dog #2 in a calm & friendly manner. Then I might reverse the scenario, and click/treat Dog #2 for being friendly with Dog #1

I think that is a splendid idea.

I did something similar to help my dog deal with reactive dogs in public. Once or twice, clicked and treated for listening to or looking at me. Then, in another incident, when he did nothing and did not react to the other dog's snarly behavior, I rewarded that, too, as I was giving him an incentive to find that frame of mind rewarding. Behold, the power of the pork chop. (I had some smoked butterfly pork chop left over from the night before with me.)  The ultimate proof, with no treat or clicker in my hand is when a loose Scotty charged at him three separate times and it wasn't until after number 3 that he actually barked back. By the this time, the young lady less than half my age finally caught up with her 10 lb dog.

So, yeah, make the peacefuly interaction between the two the most rewarding thing. Do it often enough, it may become pavlovian. In a sense, they will find each other rewarding long after there was a reward for it. It can just become habit.

Thanks again to everyone who gave their input. I've been using a mish-mash of all of it!

The dogs haven't had any negative experiences since the original post, and they have been together (supervised) a fair bit.  We'll be working with both of them to make sure they'll be OK with each other in the long run.