For Spiritdogs- a late night thought

I don't see how DPU's approach would have gotten this dog anywhere but on the rescue trash heap.  This dog didn't want his "survival" needs met, or to be part of a social structure.  He wanted someone to show him how to put to good use the crazy thoughts that were spinning in his head and making him tear off screen doors, peel apart kennels, bust open crates, and run around the countryside for days on end.

While there are some primary needs that all dogs have - food and water come to mind, there are quite a few whose heads work like the dog that Becca describes.  I think that even Sequoyah would wind up on the rescue trash heap if this approach were used in her case.  And, she is a biddable dog with some not so crazy thoughts - never peeled anything but a soccer ball in her whole life;-)  And, she still has, and values, all the shredded pieces LOL.

brookcove

I don't see how DPU's approach would have gotten this dog anywhere but on the rescue trash heap.  This dog didn't want his "survival" needs met, or to be part of a social structure.  He wanted someone to show him how to put to good use the crazy thoughts that were spinning in his head and making him tear off screen doors, peel apart kennels, bust open crates, and run around the countryside for days on end.

I can say for sure that the dog would not end up PTS and I also know for certain that would not occur because I am not one to write-off a dog to PTS for behavior reason like others are quick to do (no meaning you).  The fact is I do not know enough about the dog other than you saying the dog has screws loose.  I have no idea of how many conflict situation this dog has been exposed to.  Maybe a comparable experience would be the true SA hound that I truly believed I "cured".  I have experienced the "off balanced" dog many of times and the order that I establish still applies along with a control environment so that such behavior as you describe does not occur or is at least minimized....and really helps the dog and that can not be denied..  Keeping that order allows me to work on these individual issues without risk of screwing up something else in the dog's life.

 You know I have had herding foster dogs and I am starting to think that you and Spiritdogs are indulging in your imagination.

spiritdogs

 I think that even Sequoyah would wind up on the rescue trash heap if this approach were used in her case.  And, she is a biddable dog with some not so crazy thoughts - never peeled anything but a soccer ball in her whole life;-)  And, she still has, and values, all the shredded pieces LOL.

DPU

I believe my sig is all the proof that is needed to show the successes

If you had Shadow, you would find out that he might like you, he might get along with one or two of the other dogs but possibly not all and he ain't gonna do what you say with out a clear knowledge of what's in it for him.

"It'll cost fifty dolla to make ya holla, I get's paid to do the wild thing ..."

Tone Loc.

Otherwise, you would probably have to immediately transfer him out of there like you did that one dog that didn't fit in. Standard punishments simpy do not work on Shadow. By his own volition, he has to work at something, whether it's obedience or retrieval or pulling like a freight train, to enjoy his food. As well as treats. And it has to be worth his while, being of an independent nature. In fact, with Sibes, it's not uncommon that they won't get along with certain other dogs. Ask any serious or avid musher and they will tell there are dogs you can't put in the same position on a gangline. Of course, dogs are individuals and some just love everything.

ron2

DPU

I believe my sig is all the proof that is needed to show the successes

If you had Shadow, you would find out that he might like you, he might get along with one or two of the other dogs but possibly not all and he ain't gonna do what you say with out a clear knowledge of what's in it for him.

Otherwise, you would probably have to immediately transfer him out of there like you did that one dog that didn't fit in.

I believe Shadow would have a different relationship with me and I believe it would be the same as all the others.  30+ dogs got to mean something.

And which dog did not fit in where I had to transfer him/her out?

I can say with certainty it took a little more than just getting Willow acclimated and meeting some needs to get her to where she is now.  In fact, when we were just meeting her needs she became more obnoxious than ever--"I want, I want, give me this now. . ."  And, if I said no or didn't hop to at her command I got growled at and stared at, whatever she could do to be more pushy.

brookcove

but on the rescue trash heap. 

Let me ask you, does that phrase come easy for you to say and write?  I don't think that phrase can ever come out of me because of the respect I have for dogs in those situations.  

DPU

I believe Shadow would have a different relationship with me

Good point. Humans are individuals, too.

DPU

And which dog did not fit in where I had to transfer him/her out?

I can't remember the dog's name but you sent the dog to live with a behaviorist. I had the impression it was a problem that was not resolving itself in your plan.

DPU

I have experienced the "off balanced" dog many of times and the order that I establish still applies along with a control environment so that such behavior as you describe does not occur or is at least minimized....and really helps the dog and that can not be denied..

OK, I'll agree with this helping the dog. . .but then what, what happens when he IS exposed to whatever triggers whatever behavior.  What steps do you take to prepare the dog for a different environment? 

My own dog, she actually does wonderful in our controlled environment.  But, step outside of it and she's still got all the problems.  I've chosen to just limit her exposure to people, dogs, experiences in general due to her breed, age, health.  But, what do you do?? You must do something because these are dogs that are going to new homes.

Lori

willowchow

I can say with certainty it took a little more than just getting Willow acclimated and meeting some needs to get her to where she is now.  In fact, when we were just meeting her needs she became more obnoxious than ever--"I want, I want, give me this now. . ."  And, if I said no or didn't hop to at her command I got growled at and stared at, whatever she could do to be more pushy.

I agree, from what I read about you and Willowchow, it would not be an overnight change.  But giving the dog order, giving the dog structure, giving the dog consistency, and eliminating/avoid the conflicts, and accomodating goes a long way in strengthening the relationship/trust between the owner and the dog.  At the beginning of change-that is most important to me.  Without knowing the details of your experience with Willowchow, can't you see all the conflict situations that were created and how they would result in the behavior you see.  It is so evident in the dog you describe.

ron2

I can't remember the dog's name but you sent the dog to live with a behaviorist. I had the impression it was a problem that was not resolving itself in your plan.

That would be Paganini and the rescue organization gave me a choice of working with a behaviorist or Pags can go live with a behaviorist and her pack of GSD.  This was only suppose to be for two weeks.  After the 2nd week, it turned into another two weeks and then another two weeks until because of the exposure Pags had the training facility, a family fell in love with her and adopted her. 

I was prepared for Pags to come back and I was preparing to try other ways for her to get over her DA.  Thats when I purchased the Constructional Aggression Treatment (CAT) and read as much as I could about DA.  I really was very disappointed she did not come back here.  At the time, I was fostering 4 other dogs for the rescue org and they thought I needed some relief. 

DPU

giving the dog structure

I used NILIF to create order and structure.  How do you do it?

DPU

and accomodating goes a long way in strengthening the relationship/trust between the owner and the dog.

See, I did not find that by accomodating her I strengthened our relationship.  I found that she thought she could bully me(maybe those aren't the right words but you get the idea, she was demanding and more demanding) into doing stuff for her and giving her stuff.  After I started working with the NILIF program our relationship got much better because she then did whatever I asked her to for whatever she wanted rather than growling and insisting on it by staring and pacing around until she got whatever it was. 

Hi Willowchow,

I saw your post prior to you editing it where you stated that you do not believe I have had any dogs in my home with significant behavior problems.  Given that as a preface, I am not sure what you want to accomplish.

I deleted that because I didn't feel that was appropriate but I'd still love it if you answered what I did post.