The Dog Listener

Chuffy

ETA - Hasanyone BESIDES me and oranges read the book in question?! 

I read it when Ben was a puppy, he didn't approve - to date, that is the one book he's ripped to shreds.  So unfortunately, I can't re-read it. 

 It is my humble opinion that relatedness is not what's important when comparing dogs and wolves. You could debate that all day and still not really get a sense of what it meant. What's important is that dogs are domestic and wolves are wild. Wild and domestic rabbits are considered exactly the same species, no sub-species. They can and do interbreed. Yet they are wildly different when you have them in a hutch in your backyard. Wild rabbits will never be tame. Domestic rabbits can survive out there on their own if they are fast learners and particularly fast and alert, but I've never seen any with an actual burrow or babies, and they're so often too bold and curious and get taken out by a dog. Usually a pet dog.

Anyway, relatedness doesn't mean much next to wild versus domestic in my world.

I read some of the book and got annoyed with the obsessive wolf links as well. I think my partner met her at one point quite haphazardly. Being an author meant she got to visit the visual effects studio where he works just because she said she wanted to, apparently. Anyway, she loves wolves and seems to wish she has something of them in her dogs. The more the better. Domestic dogs are a short genetic step from wolves, but a whole world apart.

 I read part of her book, but got annoyed since she seemed to believe that the answer to every dog behavior problem was to put a human cracker  next to your dogs food when you are making it to make it seem like you were eating first.  Seriously, every problem was addressed this way!

corvus

Anyway, she loves wolves and seems to wish she has something of them in her dogs. The more the better.

This figures.  She is a huge fan of Utonagans, apparently - a new "breed" of dog bred purey to LOOK like wolves, without actually crossing dogs to wolves.  I think she is a president of the breed club or something... dont quote me on that, I could be totally wrong!

corvus

 It is my humble opinion that relatedness is not what's important when comparing dogs and wolves. You could debate that all day and still not really get a sense of what it meant. What's important is that dogs are domestic and wolves are wild. Wild and domestic rabbits are considered exactly the same species, no sub-species. They can and do interbreed. Yet they are wildly different when you have them in a hutch in your backyard. Wild rabbits will never be tame. Domestic rabbits can survive out there on their own if they are fast learners and particularly fast and alert, but I've never seen any with an actual burrow or babies, and they're so often too bold and curious and get taken out by a dog. Usually a pet dog.

Anyway, relatedness doesn't mean much next to wild versus domestic in my world.

Nature V nurture, the oldest debate in the Big Book Of Science and it is a never ending one!  I think you make a great point here, one I had not considered.

Most of the time I think she uses negative punishment to get what she wants from the dogs.  If they are acting up before leads are put on, she postpones the walk.  The walk only proceeds when the dogs display a measure of calm and self control.  Same with pulling.  This is simple P- in action and has sod all to do with wolves whichever way you look at it, as one wolf has never tried to put a lead on another wolf.

She also despises punishment, voilence, pain and fear, (a good thing IMO - right on lady! ) which wolves DO use, to some degree, with one another.

I find the gesture eating pointless, I tried it and it made no difference but I will say it did no discernible harm, unlike other practises like taking the food bowl away or invading the dogs space while he eats.

All that said, I do like the way she recommends reuniting - and I DO think this is similar to wolves, but ALSO (more importantly) to domestic dogs.  The way you remain aloof and calm without making eye contact until YOU are ready to initiate contact.  This WORKED for us.  It's brilliant.

I also LOVE her emphasis on calm.

- - -

Spence have you actually read the book?  SO far you haven't related any of your comments on genetics to the book itself... that is to say, are you supporting her ideas because of her take on dogs and wolves?  Or do you not-support them because she is so wildly different, so as to be almost opposite to, another trainer/behaviourist who shall remain nameless at this point?  Just curious.

i used to actually own a wolf. Well, almost pure wolf as far as we could tell, there was probably some GSD in there way back. She didn't seem to care whether we ate before or after she ate, went out the door before or after her, walked ahead of or behind her, and she never once challenged us for "dominance" or appeared to have any idea what "leadership" meant. Responded really well to purely positive training and NILIF. The biggest difference I saw between her and dogs, at least the breeds of dogs I've owned, was the dramatic change in "acceptance of strangers" as she hit adulthood. She was happy to meet new dogs and people before around age 2 and a half, after that forget it, enemies forever. It supports the idea that dogs behave an awful lot like wolf puppies, not wolf adults. Goes along with the idea that humans behave an awful lot like ape children, not ape adults.

mudpuppy

Goes along with the idea that humans behave an awful lot like ape children, not ape adults.

Amen, sister. That's the best phrase I've seen so far. I actually smiled with my new teeth.

ron2

If humans and chimps share 96 %, then the difference is 4% not 6 percent.

I dont remember saying 96%

espencer

About 94-95%

THIS is what i said, therefore, up to 6% is accurate

One link says "the two species may share only 95 percent genetic material." The other says " Groundbreaking research by Mary-Claire King in 1973 found 99% identical DNA between human beings and chimpanzees,^[42] although research since has modified that finding to about 94%^[43]"

I dont think you googled the same pages that i did, which by the way i posted in this thread 

mudpuppy

i used to actually own a wolf.

**content removed, baiting/rude**

 As interesting as the science talk is, I started this thread to get people's views on the book. Not to start a debate on how closely dogs and wolves are related.

I don't mind the science talk but I would really like to hear if people have even read the book.

oranges81

I don't mind the science talk but I would really like to hear if people have even read the book.

Let's respect the wishes of the OP, shall we?  Thanks.  

Benedict

Let's respect the wishes of the OP, shall we?  Thanks

I started another thread so that the secondary discussion doesn't interfere with this one.