Defensive growling = trouble indicator?

SO I have mixed feelings here…on one hand I agree that there are times when a growl is NOT necessarily a bad thing as it is communicating a message, but on the other hand when it comes to growling in certain situations (such as guarding the bed or a human that is with them on that bed) I think that behavior needs to be changed.
 
For example, JJ was snarly and growly with almost everyone when we got him and he is almost never that way with people now because we have taught him that that behavior is unacceptable to us.  Instead of snarling right away when a stranger approaches him or tries to pet him, he now communicates his uncomfortableness by turning his head away.  This allows us to understand that he does not desire to be pet by that particular person, so we have the chance to stop the human#%92s behavior.  Some strangers he absolutely WANTS to be pet by and will seek out that affection and others he is very unhappy with them even approaching within a foot or two.
 
I never allow JJ to ever growl at me when he is being gaurdy with treats or bones. That is unacceptable behavior to me. On the other hand, sometimes I will be laying on the floor next to him petting him and he is always in pure heaven but the on rare occasion the closeness will suddenly become a little overwhelming to him and he won#%92t be easily able to communicate his uncomfortableness by turning away (because of how he is laying), he will let out the tiniest little growl thus telling me he wants a little more space. As soon as I provide him a little more space he is back in total heaven again with being pet and you can even see by how he reacts that he appreciates the message I got.
 
I hope that came through clearly the on differences I see with JJ regarding when growling is appropriate and NOT appropriate???

Thanks, I think I understand what you guys are getting at with the different situational growling.

My little fellow doesn't growl at me, but at other people when they're approaching me when I'm lying down - like, "Hey, you stay away, she's sleeping right now and don't you hurt her!" If I get up and/or talk to the person, or if the person just approaches non-threateningly, Rascal calms down and stops growling.

He is generally a very timid, submissive dog (I go to pet him and he rolls over on his back or lifts up his leg, I go near his food while he's eating and he runs away, I go to sit near him and he immediately gives up and give me room... we're working on him being more comfortable with me). He's never growled at me (even when I once accidentally stepped on him rather strongly). I'm going to try mudpuppy's trust-building idea - I think he's responding more fearfully than aggressively, so hopefully when he becomes a little more confident the behavior problem will solve itself.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

In general growling is acceptable-- the dog is telling you he is uncomfortable. So you don't do anything about the growling per se, since it's good the dog is telling you he is uncomfortable instead of just biting you; but you need to address why the dog is uncomfortable. So your dog growls when strangers approach the bed. So perhaps get strangers to approach, stop BEFORE  he growls (important), and toss a treat over. And gradually close up the distance.

Bingo.  It is quite possible that if he had an elderly owner, they didn't get many visitors, or he was never adequately socialized as a puppy.  From his perspective, strangers might be scary (80% of aggressive behavior is rooted in fear).  Mudpuppy's suggestion is excellent, and so is the Peaceable Paws site.  They recommend positive methods - I know, I had to be screened to even put my listing there.

Doesn't that suggestion just make the dog think it's king of the world, getting treats while on the bed?  I see the point of treating before he growls, but how is he associating that he's getting a treat because he's NOT growling.  Confused.

ORIGINAL: willowchow

Doesn't that suggestion just make the dog think it's king of the world, getting treats while on the bed?  I see the point of treating before he growls, but how is he associating that he's getting a treat because he's NOT growling.  Confused.

 
What I think is that the association in this case is:  people coming up to the bed I'm on is good-they have good stuff.  (ie; only a positive experience when someone approaches.)
 
Since there's no growl, the dog doesn't have to associate people with growling behavior-and thus the growly behavior doesn't get reinforced.
 
Personally I think that bed priviledges should be revoked for a short time.  But that's just me.

ORIGINAL: jjsmom06

SO I have mixed feelings here…on one hand I agree that there are times when a growl is NOT necessarily a bad thing as it is communicating a message, but on the other hand when it comes to growling in certain situations (such as guarding the bed or a human that is with them on that bed) I think that behavior needs to be changed.

For example, JJ was snarly and growly with almost everyone when we got him and he is almost never that way with people now because we have taught him that that behavior is unacceptable to us.  Instead of snarling right away when a stranger approaches him or tries to pet him, he now communicates his uncomfortableness by turning his head away.  This allows us to understand that he does not desire to be pet by that particular person, so we have the chance to stop the human's behavior.  Some strangers he absolutely WANTS to be pet by and will seek out that affection and others he is very unhappy with them even approaching within a foot or two.

I never allow JJ to ever growl at me when he is being gaurdy with treats or bones. That is unacceptable behavior to me. On the other hand, sometimes I will be laying on the floor next to him petting him and he is always in pure heaven but the on rare occasion the closeness will suddenly become a little overwhelming to him and he won't be easily able to communicate his uncomfortableness by turning away (because of how he is laying), he will let out the tiniest little growl thus telling me he wants a little more space. As soon as I provide him a little more space he is back in total heaven again with being pet and you can even see by how he reacts that he appreciates the message I got.

I hope that came through clearly the on differences I see with JJ regarding when growling is appropriate and NOT appropriate???

I agree, when you correct a dog growling he is not thinking "oh he does not want me to growl, next time i wont and i'll just bite" no, they know what you are correcting is the behavior not the noise, they know they are behaving in a way you dont like it

Animals also communicate thru the feelings they project, they dont know we can not do it that way, because they didnt study human behavior they still think we do (since all the animals do the same), so since they think we can "sense" what they are feeling then they associate the correction with the feeling we are supposse to be "sensing" from them not with the noise they are making

Humans dont think about that way to comunicate that the animals have, if i tell a human that is hyper and screaming to shut up then the human would associate that "correction" as "ok he does not like that i am screaming" but if you do the same with a dog he would associate the correction as "ok he does not like me to be hyper" do you get the difference?

espence,
 
I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say.  Are you saying that there is a communication gap between dogs and humans?

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

espence,

I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say.  Are you saying that there is a communication gap between dogs and humans?

Yes, animals dont communicate only by noise and body lenguage, they sense the way you feel also (as some of us know), like i said, since dogs dont know we dont communicate that way they still think we can sense their behavior, so, at the moment of correcting a growl they think we want the behavior to stop, not only the noise

Most of humans do not know that, they think the dog would react to the correction as a correction of the growling only (just like a human would)

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

espence,

I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say.  Are you saying that there is a communication gap between dogs and humans?

Yes, animals dont communicate only by noise and body lenguage, they sense the way you feel also (as some of us know), like i said, since dogs dont know we dont communicate that way they still think we can sense their behavior, so, at the moment of correcting a growl they think we want the behavior to stop, not only the noise

Most of humans do not know that, they think the dog would react to the correction as a correction of the growling only (just like a human would)

Where are getting all of this???

Dogs take body cues, smells, and sounds as cues to interpret intent.  Dogs don't sense our feelings.  They interpret our external cues.  I think you're anthropomorphizing dogs a bit much. 

If I walk up to a guard dog and I'm calm, and try to project my "feelings of no ill will" to that dog, I'm still very liable to get bitten, in fact I'm probably more likely to get bitten.    By the same token I could have feelings of animosity to a super friendly dog but if I show body language that I'm friendly that dog is going to greet me as if I'm friendly. 

Dogs have alot of talent, but as far as I know ESP or reading human feelings is not one of them.

Dogs can and do pick up on subtle body language cues-head, hand, and eye position- posture.  They can pick up on pheremones and understand those particular markers much better than we humans do.  They can also pick up on increases or decreases in our respiration, or our sweating.  They notice the subtle scent changes that occur when we are ill.  Heck even dogs smell differently when they aren't well.  Every animal has a "baseline" scent, even humans.  Any change in body chemistry can change this scent in a detectable way...arousal, drunkeness, stress, and illness are the first that come to mind.

Unless you show me double blind tests that prove what you assert "dogs can sense feelings" then I'll have to disagree.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Dogs don't sense our feelings. 

Well actually humans also pick up other people's energy, we dont comunicate that way like i said before but we (as well as the dogs) can be affected by someone's feelings, the difference is that the dogs actually have more focus on it than a human

[size="3"]Have you feel when somebody has a "bad vibe"? that you dont trust that person even when you dont know  her/him that well?

[/size]In the animal world, energy equals language and communication. It#%92s the first thing an animal can pick up about another animal. There is a ripple effect throughout any natural environment based on the energy that the animal is projecting. You may notice how one particular dog out walking in a neighborhood can trigger a reaction from seemingly every other dog in the area. That#%92s not your imagination. It#%92s absolutely true that the energy of just one dog can set off a response from all the way down the street.
It works that way in the human world, too. If I am projecting a calm and assertive energy, I can influence other people to also stay calm or follow me. If I am in a crowd acting agitated, I can change the energy of the entire crowd. In the same way, if a dog is walking through a neighborhood projecting intense, fearful, or excited energy, every other dog inside a house or behind a fence is able to sense that instability. If the dog is in a calm, submissive state, those same dogs are also able to read his energy without a desire to challenge it.

Back to Lori's question: this fearful, unsocialized (social dork, if you will) dog hasn't learned "off" yet and hasn't learned that other people are okay and he doesn't know any other way to communicate except to bark, growl, hide, shake, etc.
 
Here's the thing: this dog isn't going to think he's king of the world--there are too many scary things going on in his world to think that. The dog is just warning people to stay away.
 
What Xerxes is saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that allowing the dog on the bed right now is reinforcing that reactive, not stubborn, behavior. It's not "I'm the boss and want the bed and her to myself," but more of "I don't trust you, whoever you are, and I don't want you to get too close and then hurt me." Either way--not being on the bed right now is way to manage the situation while working on the behavior.
 
That's what the Cita will find from the Pat Miller site (and book). You manage the situations while you work out the behavior (through counter-conditioning, training, etc., whatever is appropriate).
 
Espencer? Well, your posts are a whole other thread, so I'll skip them for now.

Well, his problems are when *I* am on the bed, no matter where he is, so I'm certainly not revoking my own bed priviledges!

But I definitely see what you're saying. "Managing the situation while working out the behavior" seems a great way to put it. Right now I'm thinking I need to be alert to approaching people and respond to them before he does until we get him more confidence.

Now all I need is to find some strangers to approach me in bed so we can practice!

Dogs read other cues better than they understand english. Though they can react to a verbal command. As Ed said, they are able to see our posture somewhat ( dogs are medium far-sighted), but they smell everything, and certain stances mean everything, and they do have a psychology that is different from cats. For example, our cat, Jade, when she wants to pick a fight with Shadow, she will, as cats do, present her side and arch her back to appear intimidating. Shadow, being a dog, see's a side stance as non-threatening, even submissive, and the arched back as a funny stretch that cats do. That is, the effect is lost on him. It really is funny to see her go through these motions and Shadow lays down. What this means is that dogs see the world in a dog way.
 
As for the use of energy, having the right mental image in mind helps a human to relax and know what it is that they want. This translates into corresponding posture and smell. Things the dog can sense and interpret in a dog way.
 
As for the OP, if the dog has only done this with you being owner and not really before, then you have a hope of extinguishing this behavior. The value of the aversive, such as a time-out, removal of bed priviliges is that it provides boundaries right now. Yes, dogs growl for a few reasons, one of the being a warning of impending defense. So, there is value to the idea of helping her change her state of mind so that she is not uncomfortable. The boundaries of behavior will help her know her place is secure because you will handle problems, not her. And one of the ways that you will handle problems, in general, is to acclimate her to the fact that people approaching the bad does not mean a bad thing, and that, you can do with treats.
 
Remember, the last time people came to the bed, her whole world came apart. She lost her pack when someone came to the bed. She has to know she is in a good pack, now. But, agreed, you don't want to reward the defensive behavior, as valid as it is, because it is not her bed but yours. Keep this viewpoint in mind, you are not trying to quiet the growl which is good as a warning, you are want to change the state of mind while on the bed. If she is calm on the bed, there is no need to growl.
 

Dogs don't have a clue what the word NO means....other than its a word that comes from your mouth when you are unhappy with them.
 
I think in this case, especially given the dogs history and the REASONS behind the bed growling, I'd simply say HUSH gently.  This is going to sound odd, but why the heck do you have a parade of folks in and out of your bedroom to get him going in the first place?  I think I'D start growling if folks decided that my bedroom was fair game........

I was a bit confused about that too!  So far I think all the suggestions have been great, even where they appear to contradict each other.  Revoke bed priveleges, give the dog treats and praise when people come near and he stays relaxed and happy.  Stay calm yourself.  And do employ NILIF if you haven't already and do everything you can to demonstrate to him you are in charge in any and all situations.  It is not up to him who is OK to approach and who is not.  The fact that he is not sitting back and allowing you to make these decisions says to me that there is a missing link in the trust between you and I think you need to work on that.
 
Re the time outs, rather than put the dog out of the room (which does involve a risk of getting bitten) or letting him trail a line (which can be awkward sometimes), make sure everyone knows that the moment he growls, its a signal for everyone to leave the room and shut the door, leaving him behind.  As mrv said, do this silently so the message is uncluttered and preferably don't even look at him.  Wait for a short space and then go back in, again without looking at or speaking to him.  Carry on as you were before as if nothing happened and repeat if he gets edgy again.
 
One thing which hasn't been mentioned is his body language when he does this which might be relevant.... is he facing the intruder or side on?  Is he doing the "whale eye" thing?  Is he showing his teeth?  Is his mouth open or closed?  What about his ears, tail, general body carriage?