Over Treating When Clicker Training?

I feel the same way.  I'm in Canine Manners at the SPCA and I'm shoveling treats in their face every 3 seconds!  I know later we'll start weaning off the heavy treating, but wow, it's alot in these initial classes.   On class days, I skip one of their meals to make them hungry at class (more inclined to eat and be interested) and I cut things super small.  I cut up turkey meatballs and apple really tiny for Indie because of his stomach and Woobie gets teeny tiny slivers of hot dog or cheese.

From what was explained to us by the instructor, the heavy treating in the beginning really forms the association for the dog and gets them jazzed about training and about their owner. 

I don't click and treat for behaviors/actions that my dogs do well--sits, downs, potty, wait, etc. I basically only use the cicker on new things--like when I wanted to teach my male dog to close doors or my female to Go Left and Go Right. After they have learned the word with the command and they are consistently doing it, I don't C/T. It's just an expectation then. Well, I do, sometimes. The key for them is that they never know if or when they might get a treat so they're super surprised and happy if they get an unexpected reward for doing something they are expected to do and know how to do. 

If your dog can do a Down on his own, and do automatic sits, then I wouldn't click anymore. You have to wean them off--skip a treat here and there to begin with, and then skip them more and more and then focus on introducing a new trick or behavior/action so they know the clicker is still around. At first, my male dog loved it all so much he'd get the clicker and sleep with it.

and I feel like he's working for those treats, not for me.

he is. It's a complete myth that dogs "work to please" the owner. However, once the dog understands the behavior and is performing it reliably on cue it is ESSENTIAL to start a random reinforcement schedule and phase out the heavy treating.

When you are training something NEW, the rate of reinforcement is unbelievably high.  But if he already knows those cues then he shouldn't be treated every time... the treats should be gradually phased out and replaced with verbal/tactile reward.  What you could do is just treat for the VERY BEST responses... this helps to a) keep the interest alive and b) keep shaping towards a better and better response.

BlackLabbie

I mean, I just feel like he's doing very good but he's getting treats all the time, and I feel like he's working for those treats, not for me.

A dog does what you want for one of three reasons:

1) To make something good happen

2) To avoid something "bad" happening

3) Because it's something he has always done (strong habit - the dog is "conditioned" to respond in a set way... we never reward "sits" in our house anymore because the dogs don't even think about it.... the response is automatic... I think this is what you work towards in training but most people are nowhere near thorough enough ). 

Initially either 1 or 2 wil be true, but EVENTUALLY he will get to 3.

I don't believe a dog EVER just works "for you".  Do you work for your boss for nothing?  When you were a kid, did you do you chores for nothing?  While pondering that, think hard on 1, 2 and 3, above.  There is always a motivation.
 

Uh . . . Chuffy--here in the US, with the economy as bad as it is, and jobs becoming unstable, I think we're willing to work for free . . .

 Haha!

mudpuppy

and I feel like he's working for those treats, not for me.

he is. It's a complete myth that dogs "work to please" the owner.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I don't mean I want him soley "working to please" me, but I eventually would like him to complete a command (example, "watch me";) just because I asked it of him (example, another dog is passing us) without c&t (but that will take more time and practice). But, for example, if we walk and he does an auto sit I can see him watching my hand (the one with treats in it) looking for his reward, he doesn't look at me at all (besides my hand). He is very food motivated. Also, I'm not sure the clicker (the actual noise) is even making a difference.

Chuffy

I don't believe a dog EVER just works "for you".  Do you work for your boss for nothing?  When you were a kid, did you do you chores for nothing?  While pondering that, think hard on 1, 2 and 3, above.  There is always a motivation.

I am brand spanking new to the world of "working dogs" so I could be talking out the side of my head, but I do believe some dogs work just to work.  I think that's why if you don't give a working dog a job, they will make one up for themselves, it's the way they're wired.  I've had moments (which I hope to capitalize on) with Indie where he was just working with me because he really seems to LOVE the connection and figuring things out.  These were incidents where there was no food involved, just praise or playing around with trying to get him to try some new behavior.  I have a friend with a frustrated german shepherd who desperately needs a job.  "Working" with him to teach him to fetch and to offer some tricks with no food involved (but lots of praise and physical reinforcement) turned him on like crazy!  I think in some instances the dog does it because it feels good and that's what they want to do.  I do alot of volunteer work that I'm not paid for, the only reward I get is appreciation (SOMETIMES, definitely not always, in fact, in victim services, it's sometimes very NEGATIVE) and my own satisfaction for having done it.  I think for certain dogs what we consider working is what they love to do, like greyhounds running, terriers routing out vermin, etc.

BlackLabbie

I mean, I just feel like he's doing very good but he's getting treats all the time, and I feel like he's working for those treats, not for me.

All my residence dogs and every one of my fosters work for affection and that is their highest value reward.  They give good behavior for ME.  Its the best feeling have such a trustful relationship.  Don't let anyone tell you different. 

If it feels like a pizza delivery exchange, then that is what it is.  If you are going to use food as the rewards, then at least at a minimum make very pronounce consistent facial and body gestures associated with the pleasure of giving the treat and the agonizing feeling of withholding that treat.  This way the dog will get a human emotion reaction from which the dog will learn.  Training is teaching the dog but more than that it is a trust, bond, and relationship building experience. 

BlackLabbie

 But, for example, if we walk and he does an auto sit I can see him watching my hand (the one with treats in it) looking for his reward, he doesn't look at me at all (besides my hand). He is very food motivated. Also, I'm not sure the clicker (the actual noise) is even making a difference.

I had this problem when I started with both dogs, that's why working on the "watch me" is so important (I learned the hard way).  If you're patient enough to wait until they make eye contact and then continue to extend the amount of time they have to keep eye contact before c/t, they will get it.  There'll be a period of them trying other unacceptable behavior to get at the treat like jumping up, mouthing your hand, barking, etc.  But I found it really works to stand there motionless and wait.  That's so hard for me, I'm not a patient person, I want fast results and I talk too much when training, telling them what to do, micromanaging.  Indie is super food motivated and focused mainly on the food, so I would set the treats on something on the other side of the room and then work with him away from them.  It's the click that marks the behavior, if the treat is a few seconds behind, it's not such a big deal, that way he became more focused on me and doing the behaviors than sniffing out the treats.  It's a little bit of a problem in our class because I keep the treats in a nail apron and he sniffs it like crazy. 

BCMixs

I am brand spanking new to the world of "working dogs" so I could be talking out the side of my head, but I do believe some dogs work just to work.  I think that's why if you don't give a working dog a job, they will make one up for themselves, it's the way they're wired.  I've had moments (which I hope to capitalize on) with Indie where he was just working with me because he really seems to LOVE the connection and figuring things out.  These were incidents where there was no food involved, just praise or playing around with trying to get him to try some new behavior.

BlackLabbie

Just a quick question...

I recently started clicker training with Apollo. It's going OK so far- I just feel like I'm clicking and treating for everything though. Does anybody else feel like this? He knows to auto-sit when we stop walking, so I click and treat. This has made his auto-sit quicker. He's learing "watch me" when another dog is passing. When he does it, click and treat. When he does a down, c&t. When he does a high five, c&t. When I recall, c&t. I mean I feel like we're flying through treats here. Am I over treating???? I thought when he did something good, something you want you click and treat. Should I start weaning him off the clicker and treats? I mean, I just feel like he's doing very good but he's getting treats all the time, and I feel like he's working for those treats, not for me.

BlackLabbie

Just a quick question...

I recently started clicker training with Apollo. It's going OK so far- I just feel like I'm clicking and treating for everything though. Does anybody else feel like this? He knows to auto-sit when we stop walking, so I click and treat. This has made his auto-sit quicker. He's learing "watch me" when another dog is passing. When he does it, click and treat. When he does a down, c&t. When he does a high five, c&t. When I recall, c&t. I mean I feel like we're flying through treats here. Am I over treating???? I thought when he did something good, something you want you click and treat. Should I start weaning him off the clicker and treats? I mean, I just feel like he's doing very good but he's getting treats all the time, and I feel like he's working for those treats, not for me.

You are not over-treating if you are in the beginning stages of teaching a new behavior.  Once the dog knows the behavior, you begin adding the cue, and once they get the cue, you begin a schedule of intermittent reinforcement.  Later, for that known behavior, you might only provide a treat once in a while.  And so it goes with each new behavior - copious reinforcement at the beginning, cue, weaning from so many treats, and finally, just once in a while.  A behavior that *never* gets reinforced extinguishes.  So, if your dog is jumping up on you, for example, and you continue faithfully to ignore the dog, even turn away, whenever he does that, eventually, even if he gets pretty obnoxious first, he will stop - because it nver gets him what he wants.

Some dogs are workaholics - my Sequoyah comes to mind.  That often speaks to a need that they have to do something, however, if you can't train them, they just become hyperactive PITB's.  But, if you think that all dogs will work only for affection, then either you haven't trained enough dogs, are full of what makes grass green, or you have never tried to train anywhere but your living room.  That doesn't mean that the reinforcer is always food!!!!!!!!!!  It can be affection (for a very few dogs) or it can be a toy, tug rope, frisbee, food, bully stick, go for a ride, get to go in the pool, up on the bed, etc.  By definition, a reinforcer is something that the dog desires, and it can be contextual moment to moment.  And, if you put a pile of roast beef on the floor and sat down next to it, my guess is that you would get affection, after the beef was consumed.  Try it.  It's always helpful to know your dog's five favorite reinforcers - ask the dog!  And don't assume that you know.  We have many dogs that come through our doors that will work their little butts off for cheese and completely ignore liver.  Others want their tug toy and not steak.  Some prefer fish based treats over meat or poultry.  No one is going to argue that dogs don't like affection, or that they will not work for it, but it is often not the most effective reinforcer that you could be using, especially when trying to teach a difficult behavior. 

No one wants a fat dog, so if you are treating a lot because your dog is just beginning, just use part of his dinner as your treats when training at home.  And, keep the size of the treats very small - half the size of your pinky fingernail is plenty.  Dogs don't care how much, they care how many.
 

corgipower

I do agree that there are *some* dogs that work just for the sake of working. Many "working" dogs have drives hard wired and the behaviors they perform use those drives - teaching a GSD to fetch with no food ~ he's satisfying a prey/play drive. Running greyhounds, terriers routing out vermin are using hard wired instincts. For a dog to do obedience - sit stay, heel, etc with no reward (food, toys, praise) is very rare, IME. Out of all the dogs I've worked with, Ares is one of only two dogs I've seen who seem to have a "work drive".

I'm very excited to think that Indie might be one of these dogs.  Granted, I haven't tried teaching him something without ANY reward, when I'm working without food, there's alot of praising and petting, so I guess that's not *technically* just a working routine.  But when talking to the guy who bred him, he said Indie's mom was a housedog who was not happy just being home so they sent her to his father's farm.  But when she was a housedog, she was thrilled to do chores around the house, carried in grocery bags, fetched the paper, etc. and he seemed impressed that she didn't need a treat or anything, just doing it made her happy and tail wagging.  Indie's dad worked cattle without much formal training on a farm where the owner was just an old fashioned farmer dude who'd say "Go get the cows" and Storm (Indie's dad) would run out and do it all on his own, and apparently could move them from place to place without all those "fancy commands".  From the description this was not a new fangled positive reinforcement farmer.     So I think the instincts to love working is strong in my boy. 

 My click and treats are mere crumbs. Seriously. The dog doesn't need a big chunk of a treat. A teeny tiny morsel does just fine. So, I buy super tiny treats that can be broken up in to even smaller pieces.