training recall to a whistle

Thank you guys for this thread!  Harry has always had a hard time with recall, except in the house during a training session

I just ordered 2 of the whistles you have for Bugsy...one for me, one for BF.  I'm excited to try this new method.  I really hope he responds to it.  I'd love to trust him more off-leash as well.

Ena is juuuust about to be too old for the off leash puppy deal, and I need to get working harder on her recall. I think I'm going to work both dogs with a whistle. They'd be able to hear it better at the beach, right? And I can use it even if I have a cold, and have no voice...  

 The real secret to regular recall training is that it is done ON leash.  Best method I have found for most dogs is Leslie Nelson's "Really Reliable Recall".  You can get the DVD at www.cleanrun.com.

 Just an update - things are going super - tomorrow I am going to take him to the lake and see how he does with geese.  Tonight I put him in a stay and hid.  I blew the whistle and he had to find me.  Wow did he love this game!

^

I was about to suggest running away from the dog........I always try to make myself super interesting to dogs........

 That works with some dogs but not all.  Livestock guarding breeds stand there and think you are punishing yourself by removing yourself from the flock (and clearly you deserve it, bcause you've been quite rude to interrupt whatever you were doing).  They assume you'll come back to them. With guarding breeds, chasing games are more effective, believe it or not, though you always want to do it in a safely fenced area, and allow a lot of time for lessons, as guarding breeds are on a hugely different training time scale than we are!

Anne's right - you can teach a nearly 100% recall on the leash, for most dogs.  RRR is an excellent guide and I highly recommend it.

We teach whistle recall (or any whistle command) by giving the whistle command then following immediately with the verbal.  The dog links the two quickly.  This assumes the verbal command is effective and enjoyable for the dog.  I've put whistles on a lot of dogs and I've never really noticed that it fixes any previous problem the dog had following the verbal command.  It's just another way to communicate - like using the cell phone instead of talking to you, because you are in another city.  My experience with verbal commands is that dogs have amazing hearing - I use spoken commands all over the farm and many times the dogs are 300 to 400 yards from me, and out of sight.

Well, sorry, that was a soapbox!  Let me push it back here in the corner where it belongs.   

I've put whistles on a lot of dogs and I've never really noticed that it fixes any previous problem the dog had following the verbal command.  It's just another way to communicate

it tends to produce a slightly more reliable recall because it always sounds the same. I know if I say Come while calm and relaxed it sounds a lot different than screaming Come in a panic. Dog might be reliable to one and not even recognize the other. But I agree- if your dog won't even think about coming when focused on a deer odds are the whistle won't immediately cure the problem.

 I've been having great results using the whistle with Grace.  It seems to cut through her bird-induced rapture better than my "Hey, Hey!". 

Still using that e-collar as a crutch, though.  I only use it when the whistle fails.  She's been great in my little two acre meadow behind my house.  

I've got to do another acid test in the wide-open spaces again.

diane303

It seems to cut through her bird-induced rapture

I had to use it during his training class which takes place in a dog park on Saturday - he was fully engaged in watching some dobies running around and didn't waver with hot dogs or a favorite toy dangled in front of him. But the slightest toot and he looked up like oh you he he he

 Now I have to see if I can get it to work when he's out in the middle of a 650 acre lake chasing whatever water fowl happens to be there

Just had another bad experience with that - swims 5x in his life and the last two have been terrifying - sigh

Swim him with a doggy life preserver jacket.  Then at least you don't have to worry about him sinking.  Welcome to the wonderful world of waterfowl chasing!  You might want to consider borrowing/getting a boat so you can enforce your recall even when he's blowing you off in the water. 

kpwlee

I had to use it during his training class which takes place in a dog park on Saturday - he was fully engaged in watching some dobies running around and didn't waver with hot dogs or a favorite toy dangled in front of him. But the slightest toot and he looked up like oh you he he he

Great place for a training class, though!  

Brookcove's idea to get a doggy swim jacket is not bad.  It would change your whole energy when trying to get him to drop whatever he's chasing and get back.  You won't be frantic on the shore trying to get him in.  

 yea I'm going to put his life vest on next trip - I can rent a boat for $4/hr so not a bad idea - I tell ya this dog

argh!

 Don't forget that part of recall training is to call, release, call, release.  The dog should never think that every time you call all the fun ends!  Also, for the water thing, you can put him in his "water wings" and then use several training leads tied together to make sure that you can reel him in if he blows you off.  Once you reel him back, shove a little tripe salad under his nose but don't let him have any - and add a very disapproving "too bad" while shaking your head, then ignoring him.  Let him back out to chase the ducks, then call again.  Repeat until he realizes that you won't give him the tripe until he comes back on his own when you say "come".  I use this at the beach - with 3-4 leads tied together - that puts 90-120' of line on the dog, so he can get pretty far from you, and pretty distracted.  Works with seagull guts and sandpipers - maybe ducks, too;-))

I'm very opposed to "reeling dogs in" with long lines. There was a study that showed that dogs who were trained by simply rewarding the dog for coming developed much more reliable recalls than dogs trained with the old-fashioned method of using the long line to enforce the recall. I think long lines should only be used for safety. The idea that letting a dog "blow you off" will ruin the training of whatever and the dog must be forced to comply is I think very incorrect and incompatible with positive training methods. Dogs who appear to be "blowing you off" are almost certainly distracted, confused, under-trained, or under-motivated and how does dragging a dog to you fix any of these problems? it doesn't and it won't. I think all recall training is best done OFF leash in a safe area, use a long line for safety only if you need it. You'll notice that Leslie Nelson's really reliable recall doesn't ever suggest dragging your dog to you with the long line for failing to recall. You'll notice that very few clicker trainers suggest pushing your dog's butt to the ground when he "blows you off" for an undertrained SIT command, or suggest giving your dog a good hard leash-pop when his under-trained heel turns into forging. Same principle as with dragging your undertrained dog back to you when he fails to recall. Bad technique.

 I don't know if I'm really opposed to line work because in some situations you have to manage your dog. I do know that long line work doesn't seem to connect with what I do off-line with my dogs.  I have found that I have to motivate them to respond.  Most of the time I try to use +R motivation like food (sorry Anne, Tripe just won't work with Grace or, probably, Bugsy) or play (play seems to be working lately) or -R as in low stim e-collar work.  I agree that the best results seem to be obtained off leash in a safe area.

I think that the positive thing about Bugsy's water wings would be that it would take the fear and frustration out of working with him and make it a new game, maybe, using the boat.  When you are standing on the shore with a look of sheer panic, frantically blowing a whistle and screaming, your dog is most likely to block you out even more.  I think this happens with Grace when she cuts and runs and I freak out. 

I've read recently that when you initiate play with a dog - not connected with training - and start a work session shortly after the play session, the dog is more likely to be positive and attentive to you.  The article suggest that if you play tug and allow the dog to win, the attention and request to interact with you by your dog may increase a bit more.  I've been making a point to play with Grace everyday unconnected to training time and I do notice that she is generally more interested in what I am doing.  She is not a "playful" dog, so this is refreshing.  Trudy has always been a play initiater so it's natural to play with her anyway - I'm just more aware and try to use it to my advantage.

I've also been reading about canine massage.  Grace loves to be massaged and, I'm afraid that I'm creating a real velcro situation!  Trudy's reaction is "Mom, I'm trying to relax, leave me along!".