Anticipation and Excitement...

DPU

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

DPU

Cassidys Mom

Respectfully, that is simply not true. You admitted in another thread that you've never had a dog that was really into food above and beyond the satiation point, that would eat and eat and eat if there was food available, even if not hungry. You've never experienced it, so you don't know. 
 

It would surprise me that you would respond in the affirmative that it is ok for your dog to exhibit Excitement in Anticipation of any food related event. 

When I am preparing to eat dinner I sit at the table, place my napkin on my lap, and wait for the rest of my family in Anticipation and Excitement for a delicious meal. At dinner time my boys go to the kitchen and sit in their respective spots, eyes on me waiting for me to place their bowls on the floor. They then look at me and wait for their release command to eat. I did not tell them to do this, they have done it in Anticipation and Excitement for their meal, and because they have been conditioned to do so, just as I have been conditioned to the behavior I said I do above.  They are not abused or  neglected, they have not been harmed in any way and they show no signs of OC. Neither do I for that matter despite the fact that I also do things in Anticipation and Excitement for my own meal.

There is no doubt in my mind that your dogs are in Expectation mode and not in Anticipation mode.  By the hands on the clock, by internal feelings of hunger, by the site of food in their right place, they are absolutely guaranteed that the food will be getting in their stomachs.  If you disrupt that routine and introduce the risk they would not be getting food during this human created guarantee time, I assure you their behavior will change and it may change in unrelated situations.

 

Sorry, but you would be 100% wrong. I can feed them any time of day I choose, outside or inside, at home or at my mothers, sisters, neighbors, or the lake. I can feed them in their regular bowl or a different one, in the back of a vehicle, or at a rest area. They will sit 8 feet apart, and wait exactly as described above with no variation. So no, it will not change, and that is purely because of the relationship I have with my dogs. They KNOW they will not go hungry and they KNOW they will be kept safe and they KNOW that there is nothing to fear. Thank you.

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

 I do not see how excessive water intake was linked to Anticipation and Excitement in that case? Could you explain please?

Here is the thread on Sampson.  Please feel free to post there on how you would advise and resolve but please take into consideration the other responses.  Sampson was recently adopted and the family said they were committed to continue what I started.  I am in contact with the family so I may pass on your advise to them.  http://community.dog.com/forums/t/79082.aspx

Any withholding of a WANT creates or escalates the Anticipation emotion.

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

Sorry, but you would be 100% wrong. I can feed them any time of day I choose, outside or inside, at home or at my mothers, sisters, neighbors, or the lake. I can feed them in their regular bowl or a different one, in the back of a vehicle, or at a rest area. They will sit 8 feet apart, and wait exactly as described above with no variation. So no, it will not change, and that is purely because of the relationship I have with my dogs. They KNOW they will not go hungry and they KNOW they will be kept safe and they KNOW that there is nothing to fear. Thank you.

Again, you are supporting my point....TRUST....RELATIONSHIP....the dog has a guarantee from you.  Take that guarantee away and the risk moves from Expectation to Anticipation.  Hey, give me a break, I can only go by what is posted with respect to information.  The post gave me an impression of a structured scheduled eating routine.  Even if you do not recognize it in a varied eating schedule, the dogs see a structure.  Go outside of the structure and thats when risk and anxiety is introducted. 

DPU

Cassidys Mom

Respectfully, that is simply not true. You admitted in another thread that you've never had a dog that was really into food above and beyond the satiation point, that would eat and eat and eat if there was food available, even if not hungry. You've never experienced it, so you don't know. 
 

It would surprise me that you would respond in the affirmative that it is ok for your dog to exhibit Excitement in Anticipation of any food related event.

Where did I say that it was okay? You're putting things into my post that aren't there. I simply said that it IS, not that it's OKAY, or even NOT okay  - it was simply a statement of fact. Basically he's excited about everything. He's a high energy dog who loves to play, with strong working drives, as is typical for his breed. These are inherent, genetic traits that are readily apparent. His half sister is calmer, more relaxed and easy going. Those are her inherent personality traits.

He's definitely not OC. He's an extremely happy dog, very enthusiastic, very affectionate. He just likes to eat. He also likes to play. A big, strong, extremely smart, high energy excitable dog like that can easily become a nightmare if not required to exhibit calm behavior, if not required to control his impulses. If it's unfair to ask him to do that, how would you handle a dog like that? Would you truly give him whatever he wants, let him do whatever he wants, whenever he wants it? How would you teach him manners and good behavior?
 

 IME withholding of a want often simply creates a different "want".  Ben loves squeaky toys, I do not, very much.  Particularly high-pitched squeaks really get to me.  I do give Ben squeaky toys but remove them from his reach if he has pushed me past my comfort zone by squeaking too much.  Ben ALWAYS "wants" a squeaky toy, he will never refuse one, but withholding one/taking one away from him creates no anxiety whatsoever.  He just finds a new toy to play with. 

Cassidys Mom

Where did I say that it was okay? You're putting things into my post that aren't there.  

I said it would surprise me that you would respond.....would means happens in the future....not that you did respond in the affirmative.

For the dog that is before me, I have already stated how I welcome a dog into my home and go about rehabbing.  From your description in your posting, I can relate that if a dog like that was presented to me I would care for the dog as if the dog had OC.  For conditions that are beyond my capacity, I turn the issue over to professionals.  But for sure, the underlying condition would have to be address before I would teach the dog manners and good dog behavior.  IMO, teaching and disciplining a dog with a psyche issue will create more problems....mind you I don't you or your dog or the real situation.

DPU

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

Sorry, but you would be 100% wrong. I can feed them any time of day I choose, outside or inside, at home or at my mothers, sisters, neighbors, or the lake. I can feed them in their regular bowl or a different one, in the back of a vehicle, or at a rest area. They will sit 8 feet apart, and wait exactly as described above with no variation. So no, it will not change, and that is purely because of the relationship I have with my dogs. They KNOW they will not go hungry and they KNOW they will be kept safe and they KNOW that there is nothing to fear. Thank you.

Again, you are supporting my point....TRUST....RELATIONSHIP....the dog has a guarantee from you.  Take that guarantee away and the risk moves from Expectation to Anticipation.  Hey, give me a break, I can only go by what is posted with respect to information.  The post gave me an impression of a structured scheduled eating routine.  Even if you do not recognize it in a varied eating schedule, the dogs see a structure.  Go outside of the structure and thats when risk and anxiety is introducted. 

Okay, so now you are agreeing with me? In previous responses you told me that my method of training, specifically withholding of positive reinforcement until am asked for behavior has been performed, is damaging to the human/dog relationship and creates behaviors such as anxiety and OC. Now, you are telling me that my dogs have a trusting relationship with me? Therefor obviously my method of training has not been damaging to my dogs, correct? I am not being combative, but I am desperately trying to understand how you seem to want to have it both ways? My dogs DO exhibit anticipation and expectation. They do. But I am having trouble understanding why you think interruption of the chain, by asking to sit, wait, etc., causes OC behaviors and anxiety?

Corvus had a wonderful post in the past that I think expresses what I am trying to convey.  It is about trust and at the start of the building trust and the relationship, it is so important to know and be able to recognize the negatives.  Definitely important at the beginning.

DPU

Cassidys Mom

Where did I say that it was okay? You're putting things into my post that aren't there.  

I said it would surprise me that you would respond.....would means happens in the future....not that you did respond in the affirmative.

For the dog that is before me, I have already stated how I welcome a dog into my home and go about rehabbing.  From your description in your posting, I can relate that if a dog like that was presented to me I would care for the dog as if the dog had OC.  For conditions that are beyond my capacity, I turn the issue over to professionals.  But for sure, the underlying condition would have to be address before I would teach the dog manners and good dog behavior.  IMO, teaching and disciplining a dog with a psyche issue will create more problems....mind you I don't you or your dog or the real situation.

But this is not a dog with OC. This is not problem behavior. It doesn't require any sort of intervention by a professional. This dog is not worried, or stressed, he's happy. There is no 'underlying condition'. Life is grand, joyful enthusiasm, that sort of thing, not something to be 'fixed'.

 He just needs to know that calm behavior, good behavior, and impulse control will earn him what he wants. Drives like this are actually encouraged in German shepherds, which are a working breed. They are necessary for competing in Schutzhund, which is a breedworthiness test. Because I'm not interested in Schutzhund I have to teach him to inhibit those drives, but for many other people, that's exactly what they want to see in a GSD.

 If the dog feels and trust its knows where and when he is getting his meal, then he does not counter surf or garbage pick.  Last night, I put my dinner plates in the kitchen sink and left 2 porterhouse steak bones on the plates.  They were still there this morning.  Why would that be a problem for others?

I have to disagree here, River knows where he gets his food from and he gets plenty three times a day but he counter surf and garbage picks.  My previous dog Duke, never counter surfed or garbage picked either - I could leave a porter house on the counter and he would leave it alone.  I have done nothing different between those two dogs.  Although Brooke gets curious and sniff the table and will occasional explore a garbage bag left open and in her reach she would not counter surf and steal or tear the garbage.  River's objective is to see whats on that counter he is just very food motivated it has nothing to do with him not getting his meals or knowing when they are coming.

Different dogs, different personalities, different problems. 

I would love to see that video of your dog in the red zone, I have never seen a dog in the "red zone".

DPU

Corvus had a wonderful post in the past that I think expresses what I am trying to convey.  It is about trust and at the start of the building trust and the relationship, it is so important to know and be able to recognize the negatives.  Definitely important at the beginning.

Post by Corvus:  I think of it like a bank account. Every time you are responsible in the eyes of your animal for something good, you make a deposit in the bank. The size of the deposit is directly proportional to the animal's delight in whatever you've done for them. When you do something to them that they don't like, you make a withdrawal. The size of the withdrawal is directly proportional to the level of dislike the animal feels for whatever you did to it. Thus, over time you develop a history which affects the degree of trust your animal has in you. As a positive trainer, my goal is to have my balance as high as I can while still having an animal that is safe, healthy, and that I can live with. Naturally, I want to keep my withdrawals at a minimum. I like my balance to be high because it makes less of a dent when I have to make a withdrawal. Ultimately, I invest in my animal's trust in me with positive experiences, while negative experiences set my investments back. I'm fine making withdrawals as long as my bank balance is high, and as long as I maintain my bank balance at a high level. Technically, I could make more withdrawals to get a dog that might respond quicker and I'd be safe as long as the balance stayed above the black, but as a positive trainer, I resist making withdrawals unless there's no other way to do whatever I have to do with my animal. That's just how I see it. Trust is a bank account I build up with positive actions and diminish with aversives, punishment, or corrections. That's not to say I never make withdrawals, just that my aim is to deposit as much as I can and withdraw as little as I can. Nor is it to say all animals respond the same way. What is a withdrawal to some may be a deposit to others. It all comes down to what they like and what stresses them. Does that make any sense?

 

Of course it makes sense. That's what all trainers should be striving for. What it still doesn't explain is how this pertains to your own training and how you discourage these activities that is so much better (and less of a withdrawal) than how others do?? If the dog WANTS to go potty in the house how do you address this behavior?? If you are making any withdrawals then it is not a purely positive experience. NO training method can be purely positive, it's unrealistic....How would you deal with an overly excited dog that wanted to go for a walk and was jumping up in the owners face?

(previous question by me) But I am having trouble understanding why you think interruption of the chain, by asking to sit, wait, etc., causes OC behaviors and anxiety?

To which you responded you with the quote from Corvus. I did not see the answer??

Read my previous posts and your questions will be answer.  Not recognizing and having denial of NP within training methods will keep you having to ask the same questions over and over again.  That is what denial does.  No one has commented on my distinction between Anticipation and Expectation and the difference between the two is one contains anxiety.  That is the answer to your questions.  By interrupting a guaranteed result behavior chain there is risk of the dog getting anxious and moving from an Expectation mode to the risky Anticipation mode. 

I did not see your expert advise in the Water and the Dog thread that I referenced.  Sampson is doing great but if you read that thread you will see other members here have the same problem.  You indicated in your post in this thread that there is a health risk, a poisoning of some kind.  I am sure all here will benefit from your advise.

DPU

Read my previous posts and your questions will be answer.  Not recognizing and having denial of NP within training methods will keep you having to ask the same questions over and over again.  That is what denial does.  No one has commented on my distinction between Anticipation and Expectation and the difference between the two is one contains anxiety.  That is the answer to your questions.  By interrupting a guaranteed result behavior chain there is risk of the dog getting anxious and moving from an Expectation mode to the risky Anticipation mode. 

I did not see your expert advise in the Water and the Dog thread that I referenced.  Sampson is doing great but if you read that thread you will see other members here have the same problem.  You indicated in your post in this thread that there is a health risk, a poisoning of some kind.  I am sure all here will benefit from your advise.

I assure you that I am in denial of nothing Anticipation does NOT= anxiety and your theory that the risk is there is a possibility ONLY when the interruption of behavior is done incorrectly or carelessly ie; you have asked too much of the dog too soon. So your fear of doing so and assertion and certainty that it WILL happen has me questioning your training methods. 

No need to bait me, when I have time to read an entire thread I'll hop on over there for you, but in the meantime, at the risk of sounding redundant, since I obviously do not understand how you would handle the situations I have asked about repeatedly for excitement could you either repeat yourself or point me to the specific thread that answers that for me directly? I am truly interested in the answer, yet you seem unable to give me one???

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

I am truly interested in the answer, yet you seem unable to give me one???

Please read my prior post, just one back for your answer.

You mentioned the dog being poisoned and that is a real concern to me.  I think it is an urgent matter.