Is it play or is it prey?

domestic dogs often lack parts of the "predatory" sequence of instincts. He's got the stalk/chase/capture, but is missing the "kill and dissect" part of the sequence in his instincts. You think he's part pointer? bird dogs have had the "kill and dissect" part bred out so they can have "soft mouths" and carry birds around unharmed.

 Thanks Mud that makes sense to me - I do think he is part german shorthair pointer, although I suppose he could be part pointer - he certainly has the pointer tail thing going on His breed mix is interesting - I so wish I could see littermates or knew about his parents, but that won't happen.  So I can only guess.

Staying on topic thanks for responding I have wondered about this for ages.  He definitely has a 'soft mouth', he caught a dove when he was a pup and just pranced around with it. Once DH got it out of his big mouth it was fine, just stunned.  I gather that his successes have self rewarded the hunting so now it is not obsessive but clearly one of his favorite activities.  If he is in the yard he is hunting. 

Personally I would rather that he killed and ate the stuff rather than his version of catch release and maim  

edited to add this pic:

you can get him tested if you really want to know:  http://www.canineheritage.com/

Shadow will catch squirrels, mice, and baby birds and usually kill them from playing too hard. He doesn't eat them, just plays with them. I've come home to a squashed squirrel, no punctures. And he'll drop it for his regular meal.

I just leave it be. He's having his fun and it's not really harming anything.

Although allowing your dog to kill backyard wildlife may like an innocent pastime, I have to admit it makes me cringe to hear about it, especially with birds.  Birding is one of my hobbies and there are many things that have a negative impact on bird populations and that includes predation by domestic cats and dogs.  Additionally, all native bird species are protected by law (all except the 3 introduced species - starlings, pigeons and house sparrows) and it is illegal to kill them.  So many species are declining due to habitat loss (even many famililar backyard species) and allowing dogs to kill nestlings is not helping.  Please think twice before allowing this to happen (not just to OP but anyone).   He may be having fun but there are other less harmful ways to direct your dogs prey drive.

jenns I am not officially into 'birding' but LOVE outside birds, have many feeders, baths, etc. 

jenns

Please think twice before allowing this to happen

I am doing ALL that I can to prevent him catching birds but I cannot/will not be outside with him every minute he is out there - plus unless I followed him around & kept him on leash I couldn't prevent anything anyway.  These were the first kills of birds, as I said he tends to carry them around not kill them.  The fledglings (northern mockingbirds) were from the same nest (out of his reach so he didn't get it from there) I imagine they had been abandoned, they jumped out of the nest. (best I can gather as the nest is probably 10 feet high in a privet hedge.

I am not encouraging him as he doesn't need encouragement in this or most other areas.  As for directing his prey drive, I have not been around a dog whose drive is as intense.  Whatever his mix he is hard wired for this and I am thankful that he is so gentle with dogs of all sizes and humans. He would have made someone an awesome hunting dog or sniffer dog but he isn't he is a pet.  Exercise and training do not affect his genetic desire to hunt and catch.  I don't know what else to say.  This is a dog that if you take to the lake he is more interested in going after the geese and catching fish (this occurs regularly).  If I could snap my fingers and make him more chilled out I would.

Sounds like he would be be great at lure coursing

kpwlee

Bugsy has a through the roof play drive and I am wondering if his incessant hunting is due to that as opposed to prey drive.

Sounds like it could be one in the same for Bugsy...play drive may equal prey drive.

Buddy has been hunting and killing critters most of his 9 years.  And, we've always lived in an area where the hunt for him is good...right now on 1.5 acres alot of it woods.  I don't instigitate it...its all him.  Snakes, raccoons, rabbit, possum, more snakes and he is able to collect many a mole in the underground city below us.  He never eats any part of it...always leaving his prey prominently displayed on the driveway.

He's lab and he does have that soft mouth when he wants to use it.  I've witnessed him taking a baby bunny out of the woods and carry it around and over to me when I called him.  He very gently dropped it on the ground.  Amazing contradiction, I thought.

I have two cats, and two yorkshire terriers that do the same thing, just not as incessantly. At least you probably don't have to worry about him getting worms and other nasty parasites if he doesn't eat them.

And to clarify. Shadow doesn't pursue adult birds. Last year, doves nested in one of our hanging airplane plants. And Shadow got the babies, who evidently learn to fly by landing on the ground a lot. This year, we had redbirds nesting in the aloe vera plant that hangs and I don't think he got those.

It's part of the cycle of life. This habitat belongs to humans, dogs, cats, and birds. FWIW, I've been working an average of 56 hours a week. And Shadow spends some time in the yard when we were both gone to work. I come home to fait accompli. What do I do? Punish or redirect or whatever some two to four hours after the fact? For what was essentially play time? Or leave it be? In the almost four years that I have had him, I count 3 dead squirrels, two dead baby doves. three dead mice. The last one he caught in the house and it's possible the mouse died of shock from fright. He did not puncture or crunch down. The mouse died anyway. Actually, what I call mice are actually cotton rats, around here. And they carry fleas, etc. For my old friend Lee's snake, Sulphur, they were food.

So, Shadow has only gone after baby birds one time. And leaves adult birds alone. Chases squirrels who will usually stay out of the yard, which prevents them from getting into the attic. Should I just leave it be? I called him off a squirrel today. That has more to do with listening to me being rewarding than specifically training or shaping his play/prey drive thingy. We were coming back from our walk and he spotted on in the neighbor's yard. I said "here" and we walked in the house.

I can't do much about having to leave him in the yard. I could build an enclosed kennel that would prevent him from being able to move more than a few feet. Just in case another baby bird wanders into the yard, though he won't always do something about it. I could leave him tethered. Or we could go outside right now at about 92 F and stand there and wait and see if any birds land and wait for him to approach in the "wrong" way and then specifically reward for breaking chase of a bird. But that would be a long wait. We already had a walk in this Texas heat and a meal and now he's conked out in the house with an a/c that will knock down 30 degrees. In the summer, on days like today, whene I got to leave work at noon and DW has to start work late (1:00 pm, today) I call and tell her just to leave him in the house.

But I do work on "drop it" and "leave it" for reasons such as dangerous items picked up, etc.

((smiles))  What can you do?  My cats are always leaving us moles and mice as presents.  If I am lucky I find them before my dogs do!  If not hopefully I get them before they eat them!!  River is not as prey driven as Brooke, but oh lord Brooke is just like Bugsey - if she can catch it she will.  She is extremely fast too, like a deer.  When River wants to chase something it always gets away he is big, bulky and slow, even the chicken's aren't in danger around River and River gave up on the chickens long before Brooke came to live with us, he just tolerated them and ended up not caring.

We have ducks on our pond right now and Brooke would love to get to them and stalk them often but our canine fence is positioned to keep them off the pond.  My neighbor's have chicken and three times the chickens came into my yard and Brooke caught them in a minute - twice she killed them in play, she never intended to kill them I believe.  And the last time I saw her and was able to call he off - thank goodness.

She will also chase the deer and the woodchucks too - fortunately she can't catch up to the deer and the woodchucks get to their hole before she gets to them.   I am always afraid of the bear and the foxes but I think because of the dogs they stay clear of our property.  For some reason we don't have many squirrels so I don't have to worry about them but my SIL lab catches and kills them often!

Unless you can get a good recall and be there when those critters are around to call him off you really can't do to much about it.  What he is doing is very natural for some dogs IMO.

Just a couple of weeks ago my cat dropped a baby Rabbit on my front porch at 12:00 at night and it was hurt bad.  I brought it in and put it in a box, warmed a sock of rice to keep it warm and hoped it would live until morning when I could bring it to the wildlife refuse for help.  Brooke was such a pain in the neck wanting to get to that box that I had to lock the baby rabbit in the bathroom to keep it safe.  Unfortunately it didn't make it to morning.

Sadly, it's true. There's not much you can do. I've been trying to convince my mother to put lizard refuges in her garden to give the blueys somewhere to hole up in safety when they realise they've walked into hell and need a few dog-free hours to get out again (sometimes a few days - they aren't very bright). However, if there were no lizard refuges in her garden in the first place, the blueys probably wouldn't keep turning up there! She saves the ones she's able to, but there's not much you can do when you're not in the yard to stop the dogs. Pyry is a nut about prey. If something gets into his yard, he's hunting them for the next 2 days, even in the rain. And considering he often refuses to pee in the rain, I think that says a fair bit about how much he enjoys hunting. As a wildlife lover, I find that quite sad, but I also adore the little guy and hunting is part of who he is.

Anyway, to answer the question, I reckon it's both play and prey as well. Penny has killed a couple of small things like crabs through punching them into the ground with her snout with a bit too much vigour for their little bodies. She's always disappointed when they stop moving. It's the teensiest sliver of prey drive she has that gets her chasing them in the first place, but it's also fun for her, at least until they stop moving. If I had a clockwork crab, though, I bet she'd chase that with as much enthusiasm, whereas Pyry doesn't care to chase anything that isn't alive, except for the rare game of ball. You can't throw the ball far for him, though, because he doesn't want to have to go far to retrieve it. He also tried flyball for a bit and was thoroughly unmotivated to do it fast. He'd do it well, but at a sedate trot. I've seen him go for a lizard so fast I could barely follow the movement, though. So I guess for him prey drive is very serious, whereas for Penny, it's all about a moment of short-lived fun and she loses interest very quickly. 

Bugsy sounds like a "Player"  

I have watched RRs chase in many ways and many things, They love to "kill" the plastic lure when they complete the course. Shredding and shaking it. It is a work of art to see them push the prey in a given direction , if in multiples they cut in and out pushing this way and that  to assert thier demands on the animal.  Watching a hunt with several after a small herd of deer was amazing, they darted in and out with an unspoken plan.  Cutting one away and sticking the chase. There is a DVD of RRS stopping a charging bull elephant and a black rhino,  they are not chasing these animals they are stopping them  pushing them and holding them in a safe manner for humans they work with. A great deal of Baying and roaring as they dash in and out.

It is a totally different sound and body movement.  My dogs will chase a bag blowing across the parking lot but frogs etc have little interest for them. A cat , sadly is another thing, a loose cat in my yard is a potentially dead one same with rabbits, squirrels and the odd weasel.  Birds, not so much, they are not impressed with birds as a rule.

Interestingly enough when we herd they again have a different posture and attitude. The mouth is clamped shut, the body while fast and responsive to every movement made by the sheep more often create change in direction caused by shoulder checks and body blocking, they do not try to bite or hold with thier mouth.  They push with attitude and body. Most RRs don't verbalize when they herd. 

It is a great question, really made me think of how I view them as they work or play. You can really see the maturity in the dog as they begin to use thier body and brain rather than yips and yaps.

Bonita of Bwana

mine kill all sorts of beasties out in the yard. I figure it's part of natural selection- the stupid and slow animals go. I think the squirrels in our yard have gotten dramatically faster since we moved in.