Who my dog perceives as the pack leader?

Your going to get several replies, including what do you mean or think you mean by pack leader? I think I lead my dog but I don't think I'm a pack leader or can be mistaken for a dog of high social position or a wolf of breeding status.

It sounds like your dog is trained fairly well but could use some fine points. You need to make not peeing on the couch more rewarding or just the best thing to do. The same with attention on you. You need to make that more rewarding than the other distractions. I wouldn't worry so much about the walking position down to the inches. Loose Leash Walking, as a principle, is more important. Some accomplish that with training. If training is not taking hold just yet, some use special equipment, such as Gentle Leader, Easy Walk, the Prong. On each of those, you need to be specifically trained as to how to adjust and use the equipment.

An your doing well by getting plenty of exercise but more important than quantity is quality. It's good to have a walk but make sure it's a walk by your rules. Even if that means not much distance is covered. And don't worry, the dog learning to walk your way will get tired.

RaceProfessor

and worst of all, he urinates on the sofa when noone is home but leaves everything alone

Restrict his access to the sofa when you're not there and clean the sofa thoroughly with an ezymatic cleaner (i.e. Nature's Miracle, Petastic, Simple Solution, etc). You have to SOAK the material. If you don't, some urine will remain and he will still smell it and think it's the place to go. By restricting access, you're working towards breaking the habit. You cannot correct a behavior, such as urinating on the couch, when you're not there. Correcting anything  1 hour or even 5 minutes later is useless. Therefor, you need to eliminate the behavior by taking away opportunity.

 

RaceProfessor

he still has his gripes including an occasional slow or no response when called (particularly when outside and around unfamiliar animals/sounds), unruly behaviour when overly excited, still walks a wee bit ahead of me (his shoulder is in front of my knee)

From my understanding, like Ron said, this is more a training issue. Work with him outside on recall more. Being outside, especially in a high distraction environment, is far more difficult than working at home.

At a year old, unrulely behavior when excited in normal. He's still very much like a puppy in his head. It's another training issue. Perhaps ignoring unruly behavior until he calms down will be helpful. As for the walking ahead... I personally don't worry about my dog's location as long as the lead is SLACK. Heeling all the time can be understimulating for a dog, especially a young one.

I don't think your dog's behavior has anything to do with pack hierarchy, but that's just my perspective. 

Wow, unusual walk today. No pulling, zero tension on leash, and walking right beside me. A perfect angel. Confused...

Perhaps your dog read these posts over your shoulder.

 

RaceProfessor

From my observations, I'm still unsure to who my dog perceives as the pack leader, me or himself. He's obedient, not possesive of his food, follows commands most of the time, and walks well but he still has his gripes including an occasional slow or no response when called (particularly when outside and around unfamiliar animals/sounds), unruly behaviour when overly excited, still walks a wee bit ahead of me (his shoulder is in front of my knee), and worst of all, he urinates on the sofa when noone is home but leaves everything alone. Beside being mischievious sometimes (just turned 12 months) he's a very good dog. I may increase his excercise regimen to drain more of his energy but any input would be appreciated.

 

It might be helpful to know that all the behaviors we've been taught are signs of dominance in dogs are actually symptoms of anxiety. Most, if not all, of these behaviors don't really exist in wild wolves. In fact, in wild wolf packs there is no pack leader; the pack is a self-organizing system, designed specifically for the purpose of hunting large prey. (Wolves who settle near garbage dumps, for example, don't really form packs, and coyotes, who are usually more solitary than wolves will form packs if they need to hunt large prey, etc.)

I would say that except for urinating on the sofa (which is a definite sign of anxiety), that while your dog is quite obedient, his lack of focus in certain areas if probably due to one of two causes (maybe both): you haven't made training relevant to his prey drive (by playing games like fetch, tug, and "chase me" as part of your training program), and/or you haven't trained him when he's in an emotionally energized state. In other words, it's one thing to train a dog to come as part of a controlled situation, but quite another to train him to do so when he's highly attracted to other things in the environment. You basically need to make yourself more attractive to his hunting instincts and everything else will start to fall into place. (More exercise will also reduce his internal tension, but playing biting games -- especially tug, where you always let the dog win and praise him for winning -- does it better in less time.)

Here are some links that might help:

"Is Your Dog Dominant?"

"Walking on the Leash" (the 2nd part of this article explains how to train your dog to heel while he's energized)

"Coming When Called at the Dog Run" (a few simple tricks to increase the reliability of the recall while other dogs are around) 

As for the peeing on the couch, since that's clearly a symptom of anxiety, try the exercise explained here: "Swimming Upstream." It might not seem directly related to the peeing problem, but it's a surefire anxiety reducer, so it will definitely take care of the underlying cause of the behavior.

I hope this helps!

LCK 

ROFL! Welcome to the forum!

You will find many belief systems here. Some are rigid and all encompassing, with it's proponents having a need to discredit other belief systems in order to promote their own. While others recognise there is more to living, working and training a dog than a one size fits all, in every situation philosophy.

When asking about apples, some will tell you apples are no good, and oranges are better. Some will tell you apples don't even exist. And then there are the bananas . In my experience, I've found it best to aim for a nice fruit salad which (IMO) starts with the social dynamics...yet also includes an understanding of drives, operant conditioning, classical conditioning, and a nice assortment of tasty toppings.

IMO, leadership (yep, dominance) principles are valid and an extremely usefull concept. But pay attention first to your own behavior, demeanor, attitude, and "energy". Leaders act like leaders. It's more about what you project than what you do to the dog. Your dog's behavior is an indicator of what position you play on your "pack" team. A dog acting "dominant" can indicate confusion, or an owner who is behaving in a "subordinant" manner.

It sounds like you are doing okay. Patience and consistancy is the key. I've found many owners act like leaders one minute, and followers the next. This can be very confusing to a dog. It's natural for a dog to take instruction or correction from a leader, not from a follower. Pay attention to how you interact with your dog at all times, not just during the walk. Pack positions are fluid in order for a leader to be replaced if they become weak or unstable. Again, consistancy is the key, IMO.

Good luck!

Angelique

You will find many belief systems here. Some are rigid and all encompassing, with it's proponents having a need to discredit other belief systems in order to promote their own.

IMO, leadership (yep, dominance) principles are valid and an extremely usefull concept.

I've found many owners act like leaders one minute, and followers the next. This can be very confusing to a dog. It's natural for a dog to take instruction or correction from a leader, not from a follower. Pay attention to how you interact with your dog at all times, not just during the walk. Pack positions are fluid in order for a leader to be replaced if they become weak or unstable.

The idea that there is no pack leader in wild wolves is not a belief system, it's an observed fact of nature. Given that this is so, it would be quite impossible for dogs to have an "inherited" an instinct from wolves that wolves don't actually have. So to say that it's natural for dogs to take instructions from a leader, but not a follower, shows a complete lack of understanding of the true nature of the pack instinct.

I agree that what we perceive as pack "positions" are fluid; that's the nature of a self-organizing system. The structure changes with changes in the environment. And when you step back and ask why there would be up to 5 or 6 alphas during the hunt, and you'll see that none of them is leading the hunt; the prey animal is. So when the terrain changes, or the prey animal changes tactics, etc., each member of the pack will have a different approach to the hunt in response to these changes. That's why the "leadership" role seems to change hands. But the rest of the wolves are only "following" another pack member at any given moment because of his proximity to the prey animal, his speed in the open, his ability to shift gears in changing terrain, etc. He's not really leading though, and they're not following. The prey animal leads them all.

Here are some facts about wolves:

No wolf leads the pack (is always ahead of the rest of the group) when they travel together. Sometimes the parents are in front, sometimes the kids are. In fact the breeding female tends to take the lead more than the breeding male, who is what's traditionally thought of as the alpha male (a title which only connotes breeding potential, nothing else).

No wild wolf makes an issue over who goes through an opening (or doorway) ahead of other wolves. In fact, even the animals at Wolf Park don't engage in this silliness. You only see these types of behaviors in captive wolves, culled from various sources, who don't even know one another, and who engage in adversarial behaviors, the way they would with members of rival packs, not their own packmates.

The pack parents don't necessarily eat first after the hunt; quite often they let their young eat before they finally chow down.

No wild wolf ever does an alpha roll on a pack member. That's reserved for rival packs and/or lone wolves.

The concepts of dominance and submission are a complete fabrication. It's always the more "submissive" animal, for example, who wins the fight, not the most "dominant." The concept of dominance came from Konrad Lorenz, a Nazi biologisit who fervently believed in the social principles of Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich, including the need to "cleanse" the gene pool of undesirables like Jews, Poles, and Gypsies, and purify it with Aryan blood. Lorenz's political views seriously warped his theories on canine behavior. In fact, he never even studied wild wolves at all -- most of his observations were made on his own dogs, animals he often beat into submission for minor infractions -- yet the entire alpha theory rests squarely on his shoulders.

When you see "leadership" and "dominance" in canine behavior, you're viewing them through a specific lens. When you take a step back, you'll see that these are false concepts, humanized ideas that have no relevance to what's really going on in a dog's head.

I suggest you read the articles I posted links to.

LCK

Some folks believe dogs are not wolves.

Angelique

Some folks believe dogs are not wolves.

Nor do some folks believe dogs are dolphins, even though the ancestry of the dolphin is the wolf, I heard.

 

Angelique

Some folks believe dogs are not wolves.

I agree. I, for one, do not think that dogs descended from gray wolves. I say this in spite of Robert K. Wayne's  research in the early 90's on a singular locus of mtDNA that is quite common among the canids. nDNA is much more relevant to the structure of the dog because that's what it controls. Structure developement, appearance, etc. Dogs are actually most similar to coyotes, if one were to compare to wild canids.

That being said, coyotes, as a general rule, don't pack up except for a big hunt. Most times, they hunt small game like rabbits, Jack Russell Terriers (Shadow's friend Duke lost his life in a fight with a coyote), and scavenge off of others' kills, garbage, and some foliage, including berries and nuts. But here's the question. If the ancestor of dog, be it gray wolf or coyote, or something like the NGSD (New Guinea Singing Dog, considered a perfect modern example of a prototypical dog) don't pack up except as a family unit to raise young'ns, then where is the research to show that dogs pack up and will follow a human as a leader of canine or canid groups? Is it all based on the observations of a man who grew up in rural Mexico watching feral dogs down there? And how does that relate to non-feral dogs here? Is there research to show that dogs, alone in the pantheon of canids, will form packs of rigid hierarchy and that a human can be the head of that hierarchy by literally "aping" (we are primates) what they think a dog does?

I'm not asking these questions to be a twerp. Being a twerp just comes naturally to me. I ask the questions to figure out where the dominant leader in pack hierarchy model comes from. LCK gave one explanation that may certainly have some element to it. During WWII, everyone had world domination on their minds. The statements that LCK gave come from actual wolf researchers such as L. David Mech who observe wolves in the wild, in their natural habitat. Things I have mentioned about the coyote I have read from reports written by field researchers who spent weeks tracking coyotes in the Adirondacks and followed their diet through the scat of the animals.

So, yeah, one can say that wolves don't pack like we think they do. And some do not think that dogs are wolves or, in my case, even derived from wolves. That's fine, too. So, where did dogs derive from? The best consensus, considering the actual size and structure of dogs is the coyote. But even if were simply a proto-relative of the coyote, how does one prove that dogs have a rigid pack mentality and leader when it doesn't exist in the other canids? Primates, on the other hand, seem to have a lock on "dominant" behavior. And man, alone, is a species that even specializes in killing his own kind.

I know, inconvenient questions.

 

ron2

Angelique

Some folks believe dogs are not wolves.

I agree. I, for one, do not think that dogs descended from gray wolves. Dogs are actually most similar to coyotes, if one were to compare to wild canids.

That being said, coyotes, as a general rule, don't pack up except for a big hunt. Most times, they hunt small game like rabbits, Jack Russell Terriers (Shadow's friend Duke lost his life in a fight with a coyote), and scavenge off of others' kills, garbage, and some foliage, including berries and nuts. But here's the question. If the ancestor of dog, be it gray wolf or coyote, or something like the NGSD (New Guinea Singing Dog, considered a perfect modern example of a prototypical dog) don't pack up except as a family unit to raise young'ns, then where is the research to show that dogs pack up and will follow a human as a leader of canine or canid groups? Is it all based on the observations of a man who grew up in rural Mexico watching feral dogs down there? And how does that relate to non-feral dogs here? Is there research to show that dogs, alone in the pantheon of canids, will form packs of rigid hierarchy and that a human can be the head of that hierarchy by literally "aping" (we are primates) what they think a dog does?

I'm not asking these questions to be a twerp. Being a twerp just comes naturally to me. I ask the questions to figure out where the dominant leader in pack hierarchy model comes from. LCK gave one explanation that may certainly have some element to it. During WWII, everyone had world domination on their minds. The statements that LCK gave come from actual wolf researchers such as L. David Mech who observe wolves in the wild, in their natural habitat. Things I have mentioned about the coyote I have read from reports written by field researchers who spent weeks tracking coyotes in the Adirondacks and followed their diet through the scat of the animals.

So, yeah, one can say that wolves don't pack like we think they do. And some do not think that dogs are wolves or, in my case, even derived from wolves. That's fine, too. So, where did dogs derive from? The best consensus, considering the actual size and structure of dogs is the coyote. But even if were simply a proto-relative of the coyote, how does one prove that dogs have a rigid pack mentality and leader when it doesn't exist in the other canids?

 

Nicely written, Ron, though I don't think Angelique's post was meant to question a dog's origins. It seems more like a "clever" way of evading the issue, which is that the idea of needing to be a strong pack leader that some people have in dog training, comes to us from beliefs about how wolf packs operate. Certainly before Konrad Lorenz came along there was a lot of folklore from various cultures all around the world about how wolves will "follow the pack leader." Lorenz simply codified that folklore into a pseudo-scientific form, creating this modern myth.

And the thing about myths is they usually serve some sociological purpose. The myth that George Washington wore wooden teeth is one example. It came to us at the time of Watergate, when a lot of Americans were feeling anxious about the sanctity of the presidency. Hearing that Washington had this human foible served to  salve a sociological wound: "Well, Nixon may be a crook, but not even George Washington was perfect--he wore wooden teeth!" It turns out (and this was reported in the news a few weeks after the original revelation) that Washington's dentures were actually made of ivory, not wood. Yet that myth still persists because it satisfies an emotional need some people have. The same is true for the alpha theory. It doesn't matter how many times it's proven false, it won't go away until we no longer have the need to believe in it.

At any rate, the point is that the idea of "being the pack leader" -- whether you're Cesar Millan, the Monks of ("How hard should you hit your dog? If she doesn't yelp in pain you haven't hit her hard enough";) New Skete, or Patricial McConnell -- comes to us originally from the myths and folklore about how wolves supposedly follow an alpha male: he's their anointed leader, their George Washington, their Adolf Hitler. Thanks to David Mech we know that's not true. And the reason I brought this up wasn't to stir a philosophical debate, but to help a dog owner, one who's having a bit of trouble getting his pooch to focus, to better understand what's really going on inside his dog's head.

LCK 

Wow LCK, I agree with your posts.

I would like to add, though, that through the domestication process, we have created a species that acts in ways that is unlike other canids or any other animal in that they naturally look (sometimes literally) at humans for help and guidance.  That is, that dogs naturally follow and want to work with humans.  Therefore questions of dominance and how to reinforce our dominant status in a relationship with our dogs seems to me to be overkill or at least unnecessary. 

GoldenAC

Wow LCK, I agree with your posts.

 

Thanks. And I agree with your points about how dogs naturally want to work with us. 

I should also point out that I actually agree with some of Angelique's training points (in italics):

Angelique: pay attention first to your own behavior, demeanor, attitude, and "energy".

This is true.

Leaders act like leaders.

This is irrelevant except that it's better to exude confidence than confusion.

It's more about what you project than what you do to the dog.

True to a certain extent, though I would say that it's what you do "with" your dog that's vitally important.

Your dog's behavior is an indicator of what position you play on your "pack" team. A dog acting "dominant" can indicate confusion, or an owner who is behaving in a "subordinant" manner.

There's a grain of truth in even these statements, you just need to filter out anything that's about dominance and leadership, as if that's what the dog is relating to; he's only relating to the shifts in his emotional energy that take place in relation to his interactions with you.

It sounds like you are doing okay. Patience and consistancy is the key. [Very true.] I've found many owners act like leaders one minute, and followers the next. This can be very confusing to a dog. It's natural for a dog to take instruction or correction from a leader, not from a follower.

Again, Angelique makes a very good point about the need to be confident and consistent; in my view she's just framing it through an invalid and badly outdated mode of thinking.

Pay attention to how you interact with your dog at all times, not just during the walk.

Absolutely true.

Pack positions are fluid in order for a leader to be replaced if they become weak or unstable.

Absolutely wrong; there are no pack positions, at least not from a dog's point of view, and yet she's sort of right in that dogs tend to feel anxious and/or unfocused around weak or unstable pack members.

Again, consistancy is the key, IMO

Right again.

LCK

RaceProfessor

From my observations, I'm still unsure to who my dog perceives as the pack leader, me or himself. He's obedient, not possesive of his food, follows commands most of the time, and walks well but he still has his gripes including an occasional slow or no response when called (particularly when outside and around unfamiliar animals/sounds), unruly behaviour when overly excited, still walks a wee bit ahead of me (his shoulder is in front of my knee), and worst of all, he urinates on the sofa when noone is home but leaves everything alone. Beside being mischievious sometimes (just turned 12 months) he's a very good dog. I may increase his excercise regimen to drain more of his energy but any input would be appreciated.

 

I've already posted some links which should help you, but here's another exercise from my article on "The Myth of the Pack Leader." This is a great tool for anyone who either wants to prove the alpha theory false, or just get your dog to focus more and sharpen up his obedience skills. I personally wouldn't go down to the local shelter and start doing it with every dog there. I think there has to be a relationship between you and the dog first. But when there is, this is a great exercise for sharpening and focusing your dog's ability to instantly obey any command:

"In The Intelligence of Dogs, Stanley Coren gives us a 'kinder, gentler' version of this exercise [I'm referring to the alpha roll as prescribed by the Monks of New Skete], asserting: 'You should deliberately manipulate and restrain your dog on a regular basis, placing it in a position that, for wild canids, signifies submission to the authority of a dominant member of the pack.' [Coren is wrong: wild canids don't exhibit this behavior toward fellow pack members.] He goes on to suggest periodically forcing your dog onto her back while lifting one of her legs in the air. According to Coren, this shows the dog that you're alpha, and is supposed to create a better relationship with your dog.

"Around the same time that I read Coren's advice, I saw a documentary about wolves on TV. At one point in the film a papa wolf led his pups out of the den, began to play with them, and then rolled over on his back, supposedly 'signifying submission'. He then encouraged them to jump on his stomach and chest and even allowed them to nip at his ears and nose. This was enormously fun to watch because it put both papa and progeny in a happy, joyous emotional state.

"So, who's right, here? Stanley Coren and those sadistic monks, or the papa wolf?

"After thinking about this for a while I decided—just as an experiment—to do the exact, polar opposite of what Coren had suggested. If the alpha theory were true, I would be creating problems by allowing my dog Freddie—an un-neutered male Dalmatian—to think he was the pack leader, right? But what would happen if the alpha theory were false? I wanted to find out. I got down on my hands and knees and began wrestling with Fred; growling at him and slapping him lightly (and sometimes not so lightly) on his sides, back, and haunches; getting him riled up. At one point, after he was really into roughhousing with me—jumping and twisting around, batting at me with his front paws, even nipping at my nose and ears, totally happy—I rolled over on my back.

"'Oh, no!' I cried, acting submissive. 'You got me! I surrender! You got me!' And, just like the young wolves on TV, Freddie loved this game. It made him even happier. Later on our evening walk, a funny thing happened: Freddie was twice as attentive and responsive to me as he had been before. I've since done this exercise with a number of other dogs and I've gotten the same result. They’re always more obedient and quicker to respond after I've pretended to be 'submissive.'

"So what emotions did I actually stimulate in Freddie when I rolled over on my back? The desire to dominate me? I don't think so. Why did this game make Fred and all the other dogs I've tried it on so damn happy and so damn willing to obey me at the same time? It stimulated and reinforced positive social feelings. It was fun. It was a game. It put us on the same level. It made the dogs confident, happy, and emotionally bonded in the most positive way possible.

"Did any of them suddenly think they were the alpha dog? Of course not. If they had, why would they then be so quick to obey me instead of expecting me to obey them?

"So, what does this say about the alpha theory? Is dominance a real behavior in dogs or not?"

 

Again, I highly recommend imitating this real behavior, which is exhibited by a real alpha wolf (meaning a wild wolf pack parent). Chances are pretty good that your dog will suddenly start obeying you quicker and with a lot more focus and energy than he did before. 

LCK