dog-dog aggression and pack situations (update 4-11)

stardog85

I have an opportunity to work with a woman whose pack of 10 dogs is well known for "curing" her fosters' reactivity issues with other dogs.  Even dogs with a history of bad behavior with others tend to adjust very well to the pack and their reactions diminish quickly and stay gone.  Her dogs do not beat up or bully other dogs, they just lead by example I am told. 

I am not a behaviorist or a trainer.  One of my fosters came to me after being kicked out of 3 foster homes and the vet's kennel because of her aggression with other dogs.  Paganini was in our foster program for 3 months and living in isolation before coming to me, she had no other place to go.  I didn't see the aggression in this dog and after a few tests, I thought she would be ok with me pack of 5 dogs.  The meeting of my pack and this dog went ok and there have been no fights.  So I got part of the equation right...the foster dog had to work at becoming part of the pack.  The other side of the equation is accepting another member into the pack...which is where the aggression reared its head.  So just being with a stable, confidence, calm pack does not "cure" the foster.  This weekend, Paganini is being sent to a behaviorist like the one you described.  Paganini will live with behaviorist, be part of a pack of shepherds, and expected to have a job.  The behaviorist said she can diminish the aggression but the chow mix will not be totally cured.

I did inquiry if she approaches the aggression using a specific technique.  I also asked if she had heard or would comment on the 2 techniques "Constructional Aggression Treatment" and from "Natural Dog Training", the "Pushing Exercise".  I have not received a reply.

stardog85

I've been working with Maggie on this issue for 7 of the 8 years

Wow i think its time to re think the techniques you were using, it should not take that long 

stardog85

Do you all think this might work?

Well, according to the time you have spent so far i think is worth a shot, i dont see how this experience you are thinking about would be firing back, there are some thinks that only a well balanced pack can teach a dog 

espencer - thanks for the nice comment about my techniques, especially after I already said she's made leaps and bounds.  I would say that going from a dog that flipped out at about 30 feet with any dog to a dog who only dislikes dogs that approach rudely and/or suddenly while on lead is pretty darn good, especially since I have limited access to other dogs.  Exactly how many dog reactive dogs have you rehabilitated and how long did it take you?!

Any actual firsthand experiences to share? 

stardog85

I would say that going from a dog that flipped out at about 30 feet with any dog to a dog who only dislikes dogs that approach rudely and/or suddenly while on lead is pretty darn good

Not if it took you 7 years, we will have to disagree there, sure i have first hand experiences, a Jack Russell who was attacking any dog on eyesight, i had her on leash with 6 dogs around smelling her and her owners with their mouth open because they never thought they would see something like that (and in less than an hour). Of course i was using techniques that you usually disagree with but at least the poor dog didnt spend more years acting that way (i'm sure the dog was not happy like that) and like with any example, if the owners dont follow up with it the problem will never be fixed, there are not quick fixes but i consider that a hell of a pretty darn good progress for being less than an hour

But what its done its done, now moving forward. Probably since you had limited access to other dogs then those other dogs were not the best out there for this type of problem, this lady's dogs sound like exactly what you need, you should take this chance since i dont think there are many (if almost any) of this kind of opportunities out there for every owner with a similar problem

They will have your dog next to the other 10, any dog is stupid enough to start a fight on another dogs territory, against 10 of them and being by himself, he will not know what to do at the beginning because all his life the other dogs were "attacking" him, after he realizes that these dogs are actually not showing any kind of aggression he will relax and start to walk around, if you are not there that will make the process faster, some dogs have more confidence to misbehave if their "pack mate" is there to "back them up", it wont be quick, i would suggest to leave him with the pack 24/7 since that accelerates the process way more, consider to leave him there for some weeks (if not a couple months) just to be sure, its worth it. Like i said, those probably are well balanced dogs that will teach yours how he can have a relaxed life without being worry of attack or being attacked 

stardog85

I have an opportunity to work with a woman whose pack of 10 dogs is well known for "curing" her fosters' reactivity issues with other dogs.  Even dogs with a history of bad behavior with others tend to adjust very well to the pack and their

I'd want to see her insurance and waiver forms. I certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for the vet bills should anything happen to her, OR my dogs. That's the practical person in me...something to really look over and consider...liability if "magic" doesn't occur.

espencer

They will have your dog next to the other 10, any dog is stupid enough to start a fight on another dogs territory, against 10 of them and being by himself, he will not know what to do at the beginning because all his life the other dogs were "attacking" him, after he realizes that these dogs are actually not showing any kind of aggression he will relax and start to walk around, if you are not there that will make the process faster, some dogs have more confidence to misbehave if their "pack mate" is there to "back them up", it wont be quick, i would suggest to leave him with the pack 24/7 since that accelerates the process way more, consider to leave him there for some weeks (if not a couple months) just to be sure, its worth it. Like i said, those probably are well balanced dogs that will teach yours how he can have a relaxed life without being worry of attack or being attacked 

Your quote is exactly what happened in my house.  Unfortunately while walking the dog I doubt we will come across other leashed dogs in a pack of 10.  Work still left to do is the one on one meeting, with and without being leashed.   This is very difficult for the dog owner because of the risk to the unsuspecting dog.  For that reason and that reason alone, the owner always needs to be cautious, excercise avoidance of the situation, and be very observant of the start of the behavior or even way before that by making a judgement call. 

Espencer, in my experience I have seen that there are many different degree levels of aggression.  From leash aggression where it is just a warning to the full scale relentless vicious attack.  An aggression that just says LEAVE ME ALONE to an aggession that is motivated by retaliation.  Unfortunately once again, you do not know what level you are dealing until there is an encounter.  And that encounter should never be deliberate.  For the dog that I am dealing it is a full scale relentless vicious attack on some dogs but not on others.  Stardog85 has not stated the type of aggression she is dealing with.

stardog85

I have an opportunity to work with a woman whose pack of 10 dogs is well known for "curing" her fosters' reactivity issues with other dogs. 

This sounds like a wonderful possibility, but I'm with Gina. This isn't TV and I would want to make absolutely certain that you're not going to be held liable AND that your dog is not going to be hurt. Sometimes a well-balanced pack can work miracles! I wish I had the same opportunity!

I am dealing with a situation with B'asia right now but it's not the same. She acts aggressive but so far she's all talk. And it's not about guarding me, she's just a snot, if you know what I mean. I'm working with several methods and so far, having some slight success (it's only been a couple of weeks). One thing I'm doing is working on attention in the presence of strange dogs and the other thing is pushing. I can't personally vouch for the pushing yet, but I do have high hopes. And the exposure and attention exercises are working slowly, as one might expect. She's a little better each time.

Just some questions that might be helpful if answered... What breed of dog is Maggie? Do you do NILIF with her? And is she completely well-behaved otherwise? NO other issues? Where does she sleep? How much exercise does she get?  

So that's my personal experience and what I would want to know before giving specific advice. Good luck!

 Glad to know you have some experience espencer, but you are correct that the methods you'd use are far from those I consider in my toolbox for issues like these.  Force training with Maggie resulted in increased aggression (from just growling at other animals to actual biting, so a significant increase) and I consider it one of the main reasons my work on this took a while to get over the initial hurdle.

Thanks for the reminder about liability Gina.  I'll be sure to check on that, though since my friend does this regularly with fosters I would think the risk wouldn't be a huge deal to her.

4iC:  Maggie is a Border Collie/Cattle Dog mix, she's on relaxed NILIF (i.e. occasionally has to do something for basic needs, must do things for fun stuff like walks and crossing the street). 

She is impeccable otherwise - autoheels in new places, sit and downs on cue, can stay for long periods in many situations, etc.  She does have anxiety about crating, but I don't really care about that so haven't worked on it (she just stays loose in the house when I'm gone) and will not recall off of prey animals (rabbits, deer, etc.).  She used to be very undersocialized, but now you could never guess it. :)

She sleeps loose in my room on a dog bed.  Minimum exercise is about 1 hour a day, on weekends she often gets double or triple that.  All is on leash due to recall issues off of prey. 

stardog85

I'll be sure to check on that, though since my friend does this regularly with fosters I would think the risk wouldn't be a huge deal to her.

That's likely true BUT as I said the practical side of me has seen too many friends, families, and even lovers get into some really awful back and forths simply because things were not in writing or clearly spelled out beforehand. When doing business or things like this with friends where emotions are involved it's always good to cover the proverbial kiester.

"She'd/he'd never do that to me..." are famous last words around the globe I'd bet LOL.

Have fun and good luck to you and Maggie!

stardog85

Do you all think this might work?  Any personal experiences you'd like to share?  I want firsthand accounts if possible vs. "This one time on tv..." stories as I'd like to know how different people approach this type of set up.

It does not look like you want what you were asking for in the Original Posting.  Those that offer an understanding and real experience to your situation are ignored or you argue their methods.  A dog owner who has to deal with certain types dog aggression has to open to possibilities that may be contrary to their training philosphy.  That is how serious aggression is.   In another thread, I really appreciate Lesjie wake up call on having to deal with a true SA and dog aggressive dog, all in one.  Lucky for her, the experience was only one day.  It makes you appreciate the realities of these behaviors and the choices that owners have in dealing with it. 

Good luck with your dog.

stardog85

the methods you'd use are far from those I consider in my toolbox for issues like these.

I thought as much. That's why I'm taking a different tack than espencer, though most times I agree with him.  

stardog85

Maggie is a Border Collie/Cattle Dog mix

Sometimes just fulfilling the breed does WONDERS to help with other issues. Do you have a yard where you could do some 'herding' exercises with her? Ever considered a flirt pole?  It would provide more physical exercise than any on-leash work could. My Shepherds LOVE frisbee and other chasing games.

Everything else sounds good to me except for NILIF. I would go full NILIF on her. In my opinion, a dog who guards their owner doesn't feel that the owner is the Source. If she saw you as the Source, she would be assured that YOU are taking care of things, including her. As it is, she's fearful that other dogs will take you or hurt you and she needs to step into that role of protector. The way you describe her (this behavior increasing with the addition of Z) makes me think that Maggie thinks that you (and Z) are hers instead of her and Z being yours. At the risk of being completely flogged, it sounds to me like she's alpha.

 DPU I don't understand why you say I'm ignoring suggestions.  The only thing I've actually dismissed is espencer's attack on my current methods, which have nothing to do with the current topic.  I answered 4iC's questions, appreciated Gina's words or warning, etc.  I haven't directly responded to your posts because they just said it's worked for you but didn't go into much detail about how.

 4iC, I appreciate your nonconfrontational approach. :D  Maggie actually has been on sheep a number of times so she def has gotten in touch with her herding nature.  In fact, in a few months when I have some additional income, I'm looking into starting regular herding work with her with a trainer about an hour away.

We have a mini flirt pole I could drag out of the closet - it would be good for her to have something to do just with me vs. always hanging out with Z. 

Oh and I forgot to mention, the group of dogs I'm possibly going to be working with are all herding mixes save for one JRT mix.  All are about Maggie sized, most Border Collies, but one or two other BC/ACD mixes as well. 

stardog85

espencer - thanks for the nice comment about my techniques, especially after I already said she's made leaps and bounds.  I would say that going from a dog that flipped out at about 30 feet with any dog to a dog who only dislikes dogs that approach rudely and/or suddenly while on lead is pretty darn good, especially since I have limited access to other dogs.

 For the past six months or so I've been working with some fear based leash reactivity when it comes to Kirby and other dogs.  When I started out with him he was a mini Cujo wannabe toward any dog that got within his sights.  Like you one of my problems was a lot of the dogs we normally dealt with were either fenced or loose (generally guarding property and far from approaching nicely).  Sadly it seems I'm the only person in my neighborhood who actually walks their dog on a regular bases.  What got Kirby too learn to remain calm when dogs were charging, barking, or coming in fast was the realization that time and time again I was going to prevent those dogs from making any contact with him.