Natural dog training - pushing

    • Gold Top Dog

    My apologies Corvus for my behalf. I agree that it went off on a tangent, and went on for far too long, and really should have ended long ago after I stated my original thoughts, as they haven't changed...lol.....and some really good questions were missed. But thanks for bringing it back up to the forefront, as it's a very important question indeed, and I'm glad you addressed it.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Well, if we're going to get back on the topic, Smile this is how I see "pushing".

    As I understand it, it's supposed to increase the dog's confidence (I don't think it increases their drive, maybe just helps them deal with it).

    I think of it kind of like this. You're a young man in high school who LOVES chess. There's a pretty girl and you REALLY want her attention, and she's looked at you a couple times, you *think* she might be flirting with you and she may even like you, but you're afraid to approach her (your confidence is low). One day, you discover that she also LOVES chess and this commonality gives you the confidence to "push through" your insecurities (you inner resistance) and talk to her. It's kind of scary, but she's got something that you REALLY want so you go for it. And she responds positively! You now have more confidence to face other situations in life.

    That's very simplistic and a silly analogy, but that's sometimes how my mind works. LOL

    The way I think of it is the owner (with the food) is the object of desire and pushing is the means to get through the inner resistance and build the dog's confidence for handling other uncomfortable and scary situations in life.

    Just as with the kids in high school, there's sort of a "dance" of attraction and resistance between a person and certain dogs (IME). This has been referred to as kind of a prey/predator model and can be seen in the videos posted of the dogs herding. I REALLY see this in B'asia. She will approach me and then turn away and avert her eyes, and back off. And she'll do it over and over. She literally does a "dance" that looks like indecision. She WANTS to make physical contact, but something in her pushes her back. When I have good food in my hand, that makes it worth it for her to go for the contact. But if I just gave it to her, there's no challenge and no confidence-building. But if I introduce a physical barrier and encourage her to move through it, she becomes more consciously aware of herself fighting to get what she wants. And she gets it. Then when I praise her for getting it, her confidence rises even more.

    I don't know if that's the way it's supposed to work according to Sattin, Behan and Kelley, but it seems to be working that way for me and Bayzee. Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus

    No one has answered my question about possible injury or pain. I'm a bit worried about Penny's degenerate disc near her shoulder blades, as it causes her quite a bit of pain in some circumstances.  

     

    I'm not a vet so I can't answer that. If you were to find that pushing directly into you caused her pain, you shouldn't do it. But perhaps you could find an alternative means of doing the exercise. Kevin told me this was a new means of what we used to do with "contacting" exercises, where you'd get the dog to jump up on you and play tug while you backpedal, etc. With great Danes we'd usually just have them lean into us rather than jump up. Since the essential goal of the exercise is to teach the dog to push past an obstacle, preferably one that has a big head attached (not to mention eyes that look down at the dog at roughly the same angle a moose looks down at a wolf), perhaps you could think of something.

    If I think of something, I'll let you know.

    LCK 

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus

    Gee, LCK, thanks for turning my simple discussion into a crazy personal battle hardly anyone on the board has the knowledge and patience to follow anyway ... for several pages there a legitimate concern about how this method might affect the health of a dog was ignored.  

     

    I'm sorry. I didn't see that post until a minute ago.

    As for the "personal battle," I don't see it as personal, just a theoretical discussion, and one that's obviously going nowhere. I was simply trying to answer why the exercise helps increase a dog's drive and it became this circular, dead end discussion.

    How's this for an explanation: it just does.

    LCK 

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    The way I think of it is the owner (with the food) is the object of desire and pushing is the means to get through the inner resistance and build the dog's confidence for handling other uncomfortable and scary situations in life.

    Just as with the kids in high school, there's sort of a "dance" of attraction and resistance between a person and certain dogs (IME). This has been referred to as kind of a prey/predator model and can be seen in the videos posted of the dogs herding. I REALLY see this in B'asia. She will approach me and then turn away and avert her eyes, and back off. And she'll do it over and over. She literally does a "dance" that looks like indecision. She WANTS to make physical contact, but something in her pushes her back. When I have good food in my hand, that makes it worth it for her to go for the contact. But if I just gave it to her, there's no challenge and no confidence-building. But if I introduce a physical barrier and encourage her to move through it, she becomes more consciously aware of herself fighting to get what she wants. And she gets it. Then when I praise her for getting it, her confidence rises even more.

    I don't know if that's the way it's supposed to work according to Sattin, Behan and Kelley, but it seems to be working that way for me and Bayzee. Smile

     

    I think your explanation is exactly right (except the consciously aware part, but never mind). But the the thing that I've seen is that it carries over to other areas where you thought it would have no connection. So I think it's more of an emotional, and even visceral, flow through the dog's whole system rather than a matter of making various associations between the act of pushing and other behaviors. (That was said for the benefit of others who see it that way, not you specifically.)

    And I'm glad to know it's helping with B'asia.

    LCK 

    • Gold Top Dog

    To be honest, not everyone WANTS to increase their dog's drive, or have the dog make contact (think frail or disabled owner, or someone with toddlers in the home) but perhaps they do want to increase the dog's general level of confidence.  I have found that a bit of good old fashioned backyard agility training can do that (or just finding natural obstacles to hike over together).  There's something about mastering the obstacles that works wonders on quite a few dogs.  So, if pushing doesn't appeal to you for some reason, there are certainly other options. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    or have the dog make contact

    That's why I'm putting this on cue ("push";) and using it in conjunction with "easy" so she knows the only time she is to be "pushy" is when she's invited to. Of course, I don't have any frail people or kids. And I really enjoy the physical challenge and I think she does, too. She gets pretty excited when she sees that we're going to play "push". Smile

    spiritdogs
    There's something about mastering the obstacles that works wonders on quite a few dogs.

    I'm sure that's true. However, there's something important (to me) in having the exercise be done, not as members of the same team, but almost as members of the opposite team. Like a good game of chess (or wrestling) with a good friend.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Carla, I am glad to hear that this works for you and one of your dogs.....but, if this has already been said, my apologies, isn't it kind of walking on a thin red line to be teaching dogs to be more pushy when it comes to food? All my dogs seem pretty confident, they push each other and are not scaredy cats by any means......but, lets' face it, all four have a high prey drive and encouraging that seems a bit dangerous in my eyes.......

    Alright, fire away.......

    I guess, I should add that I have worked long and hard to minimize the prey drive in the Huskies.......they really love cats (chase), and I have them to the point where none of the dogs chase our cats......what would I be getting into by using this method.....wouldn't I be working against my original goal?

    • Gold Top Dog

    snownose
    isn't it kind of walking on a thin red line to be teaching dogs to be more pushy when it comes to food?

     

    I don't see any reason to do this with any of my other dogs as their confidence is already up and they are well-socialized. I'm only doing it with B'asia. I'm not seeing any negative side effects at all. She's behaving exactly the same way around food as she always has except when I sit in the special chair and put my hand on her chest and tell her to push. She knows the rules.

    I wouldn't say B'asia's a scaredy cat, but when she sees other dogs, she doesn't know what to do with herself. She doesn't know what to do with that feeling.

    I'm not at all concerned about having a dog with a strong prey drive. She already has a strong prey drive. Maybe I don't understand. What's the danger of having a dog with a strong prey drive? I think they're a pleasure to work with. She's the most intelligent of our dogs and the most animated. She's really easy to work with.

    snownose
    Alright, fire away..

     

    LOL You talkin' to me?  

    Edit: Our dogs don't have access to our cats. See my post above about having this behavior on cue.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee Charles Kelley

    corvus

    Gee, LCK, thanks for turning my simple discussion into a crazy personal battle hardly anyone on the board has the knowledge and patience to follow anyway ... for several pages there a legitimate concern about how this method might affect the health of a dog was ignored.  

     

    I'm sorry. I didn't see that post until a minute ago.

    As for the "personal battle," I don't see it as personal, just a theoretical discussion, and one that's obviously going nowhere. I was simply trying to answer why the exercise helps increase a dog's drive and it became this circular, dead end discussion.

    How's this for an explanation: it just does.

    LCK 

    Yes it was and it wasn't even juicey and the responses were very predictable.  Through that dialogue I may have missed the important discussion of push versus pull since both are forms of resistance. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    snownose

    all four have a high prey drive and encouraging that seems a bit dangerous in my eyes.......

    .......

    I guess, I should add that I have worked long and hard to minimize the prey drive in the Huskies.......they really love cats (chase), and I have them to the point where none of the dogs chase our cats......what would I be getting into by using this method.....wouldn't I be working against my original goal?

     

    I'm sure a lot of people think the way you do. But as I see it the energy of the prey drive is always going to be there in some form. And it's better to have an outlet you control (like playing tug, doing agility, even pulling sleds), than one you don't control (like chasing cats). And it's not so much about increasing the dog's drive, per se, as it is about removing emotional blockages the dog might have.

    Several years ago I worked with a chocolate Lab pup who liked chasing his owner's cat Rickie around the apartment. The training took place before I'd started using the pushing exercise, but I had done some similar things, like playing tug, pushing into him to get him to wrestle with me, and teaching him to jump up on command. Once he had all those things under his belt, it was quite easy to keep him from chasing the cat. I just told him once not to do it, just as he was about to, then I told him to go get a bone instead, and that was pretty much the end of it. 

    LCK 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee Charles Kelley
    I just told him once not to do it, just as he was about to, then I told him to go get a bone instead, and that was pretty much the end of it. 

    And here's my experience. As you can see by my sig, dog and cat get along. And I should also point out that as a little puppy, he grew up around cats and a Jack Russell Terrier. So, he was somewhat socialized to small dogs and cats when they were of equal strength and size. If he got to frisky with a cat, the cat could claw him and the lesson to back off would stick for a while. Also, and yes I have taken heat for this but I am going to do it again, Shadow is primarily Siberian Husky by means of temperment, metabolism, and some physiology, even if he doesn't look like Demon from "Snowdogs" or Jack from "8 Below." Sibes are prone to think of cats as prey. And I can call him off of chasing the cat with the word "off", which means to disengage. And he breaks off. Because I rewarded successful instances. Without pushing him. Point being, I'm not seeing the pushing exercise as being the root of what makes the off successful but the fact that I have a greater reward than chasing the cat. It seems to me, that what is accomplished is rewarding for a particular behavior, which is to push against the resistance of the hand. And what brings the dog to you is not the emotional satisfactions of breaching an inhibition but the chance for reward. whether that involves pushing against your hand, or sitting, or breaking off the chase with the cat. In our house, nearly anytime he chases the cat, it is play and nearly always, it is a chase she instigated. So, in essence, I am saying that the reason the dog responds is not from a pure energy exchange or any emotional nature of the push exercise but a more base motive, which is to gain reward, often in the form of food. In other words, the working for reward is, to me, a simpler explanation than supposing the emotional states of the dog or trying to parse out varying emotions and degrees of emotions.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    First off, thanks everyone for leaving off the exclusive technical discussion and getting back on topic. 

    Secondly, snownose has raised one of the misgivings I think probably crosses a lot of peoples' minds when they hear about this kind of thing. One thing I have learnt from keeping the lagomorphs indoors is that it's pretty pointless to try to discourage them from doing something that comes naturally if I don't provide them with an acceptable way to express that natural behaviour. It doesn't just go away if I prevent them from doing something. I HAVE to address it, or it will just keep coming back in other forms. In Kit's case, that often means giving him constant access to cardboard to chew and dig at. Chewing is his default behaviour, especially when he's feeling vaguely stressed or anxious - which is pretty unavoidable with him.

    If a dog is taught to suppress a natural behaviour, I wonder if it's still there and just out of sight? The experiences with the lagomorphs make me suspect that just because dogs can be taught to suppress their natural behaviours doesn't mean the natural urge to engage in those behaviours has been dealt with once and for all. I feel like it would be better to meet that need rather than suppress it.

    Of course, that's assuming the drive behind the behaviour is always there and doesn't change particularly.

    So the fact that to satisfy Kit's need to chew, I really need to give him unfettered access to safe things to chew on at all times has me a bit worried about satisfying the prey drive in, say, a very prey driven dog. I don't plan on having one of those any time soon specifically because I have prey animals running around the place, but Pyry can hunt for 7 hours straight if he gets the slightest bit of encouragment from a hapless prey animal.

    Having said that, it occurs to me that the natural state for a herbivore like the bunnies is to be chewing pretty much as long as they're awake, as they have to eat a lot to get enough good stuff to live on. Even when he's not hungry, Kit seems to find it very therapeutic to chew on something. However, Pyry doesn't get to express his prey drive much, because everyone is focused on suppressing it. A predator doesn't need to be on the hunt constantly, really, the way a rabbit needs to chew a lot, so maybe Pyry's hunting obsession is somewhat artificial and would get less intense if he were able to express it regularly. Although I'm told a long walk followed by a long session of tug does not satisfy his prey drive.

    Anyway, this is all kind of off-topic, maybe, because I guess the pushing exercise isn't really about prey drive. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus
    If a dog is taught to suppress a natural behaviour, I wonder if it's still there and just out of sight?

     

    I am not a novice when it comes to owning difficult breeds.....AND, I realize I need to offer up something to make sure certain drives are satisfied.....those who have known me for a while know that I don't sit on my butt and just let my dogs lay around....there is plenty to be had.......

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2
    And what brings the dog to you is not the emotional satisfactions of breaching an inhibition but the chance for reward. whether that involves pushing against your hand, or sitting, or breaking off the chase with the cat. In our house, nearly anytime he chases the cat, it is play and nearly always, it is a chase she instigated. So, in essence, I am saying that the reason the dog responds is not from a pure energy exchange or any emotional nature of the push exercise but a more base motive, which is to gain reward, often in the form of food. In other words, the working for reward is, to me, a simpler explanation than supposing the emotional states of the dog or trying to parse out varying emotions and degrees of emotions.

     

    I'm puzzled by your explanation. I'm assuming you've never done the pushing exercise, or that if you have you've only just started doing it. Because I've been doing it for almost two years now, and I've never seen any indication that this in any way promotes reward seeking behavior, or that it has anything at all to do with the dog being rewarded even. The pushing does not cause the dog to push into you whenever he wants food, or ever, actually. It could, I suppose, in some dogs, but I've never seen it or heard of it happening. The way it's set up is very specific: you put one hand against the dog's chest, put food in front of her, and you pull the food away slowly so she has to push into you to eat. And most of the dogs I've done it with, even those who take to it fairly quickly, don't really like doing it initially. Many of them seem peeved that they have to go through all this fuss just to eat their dinner! They seem glad when it's over. They do NOT seem to view it as a reward. The reward, if any, comes gradually, in the form of what I would call increased drive flow. (Now there's a phrase you've probably never come across before.) So Corvus is right in a way, that's not about increasing the dog's drive, per se, but improving the way it flows, clearing the internal blockages. And whether the dog likes it or not, the exercise does something positive that she's not even aware of, and you wouldn't be either until a few days or a few weeks later.

    Also, the +R idea that dogs learn through positive reinforcement, while a pretty darn good approximation of how learning takes place, is still, in my view ever-so slightly off the mark. Admittedly it's close enough to being accurate that I have no problem telling my clients to give their dogs "positive reinforcement" for good behavior. But in my view, behaviors are only learned when the dog's internal tension is relieved. That's the reinforcement for all learned behavior as well as the impetus behind all instinctive behavior. When a dog feels a strong reduction in tension, he feels better, and starts doing the thing that reduced his tension in the first place. This is why Corvus' bunny chews cardboard. Or why a dog comes when called. It doesn't matter what form of training or ideology you use, the dog obeys because he associates the behavior with a reduction in tension. And technically, that's not positive, but negative reinforcement. 

    Sorry, I got off on a tangent.  

    But again, there has never been any indication to me that when a dog's recall is improved by doing the pushing exercise (something Neil Sattin pointed out) the dog shows any signs of coming in order to get a food reward, The act of coming to you IS the reward, because the dog has either learned that it reduces his inner tension, or it just does so innately for some, possibly unknown, reason.

    LCK