Maslow's theory applied to dogs

DPU

Hmmm, I have never seen any of my dogs go through the agility course in my backyard without me being present and cheering them on and waving affectionately on the sideline, as their very own nonedible motivator.

Perhaps then, you are training your dogs to be follow only your desires as a matter of training, while mudpuppy's dogs have learned to enjoy the agility course for the sake of what it is, rather than as it relates to MP's desires and commands. 

Xerxes

Perhaps then, you are training your dogs to be follow only your desires as a matter of training, while mudpuppy's dogs have learned to enjoy the agility course for the sake of what it is, rather than as it relates to MP's desires and commands. 

Then you dismiss the fact that objects or activities increase in higher prize value when associated with social event involving humans or other dogs.  I can surely post evidence of my observations and I did recently.  Can Mudpuppy?

I did state that Mudpuppy's observation would have some creditability if others say they witnessed the same thing.  Did you ever witness such a thing?

Ado

I have twice................

Thank you Ado for sharing your experience.  Mudpuppy's comment was generalized and if I recall not her actual experience with her dogs.  Your story has opened up new possibilities for me.

DPU

Ado

I have twice................

Thank you Ado for sharing your experience.  Mudpuppy's comment was generalized and if I recall not her actual experience with her dogs.  Your story has opened up new possibilities for me.

My agility training class takes place in a field, of which the agility course itself takes up about half.  The whole thing is well fenced.   This afternoon, we finished with class and started walking away from the equipment towards the gate at the other end of the field, where my DH was waiting, and Ben had seen him.  Now, Ben LOVES my DH, and as I have stated before (with a certain amount of heartbreak) Ben is really his dog rather than mine.  Agility is frankly the only time when Ben would rather have me than him.  So there we were, walking away from the equipment and I let Ben loose (off his lead) because some other dogs were and I would have been happy to have him play for a few minutes - he'd had a good but very long class, and if he wanted to just muck about for a bit with the other dogs, trust me he'd earned it.   The SECOND I'd unclipped his lead, Ben did a u-turn and ran 100 feet back to the agility field to start jumping.  

Some dogs really do love it for the sake of it.  As stated in another thread I do use food during training, but that is to encourage Ben to do the right thing, not to encourage him to do it at all.  He knows the route we drive to class and starts going nutty in the car (safely contained) as soon as we make a specific turn and he realises where we're going.  He LOVES it.   

DPU

Then you dismiss the fact that objects or activities increase in higher prize value when associated with social event involving humans or other dogs.  I can surely post evidence of my observations and I did recently. 

Not at all.  You dismiss that a dog can actually think, learn and enjoy things, activities, objects, behaviors on multiple levels by your statement above.  

I would love to see video evidence of your dogs rejecting chicken for a hug.  So please post us a link. 

Xerxes

You dismiss that a dog can actually think, learn and enjoy things, activities, objects, behaviors on multiple levels by your statement above.  

I would love to see video evidence of your dogs rejecting chicken for a hug.  So please post us a link. 

Did not say I dismiss.  I sad associating with a social event adds values.  You seem to dismiss affection in favor food as a reward.  That is ok if that is your belief.  No video will come.

Benedict

The SECOND I'd unclipped his lead, Ben did a u-turn and ran 100 feet back to the agility field to start jumping.  

Some dogs really do love it for the sake of it. 

That could very well be or like a playbow, it could be an invitation to continue the social event.  You were present after all.

DPU

That could very well be or like a playbow, it could be an invitation to continue the social event.  You were present after all.

I know my dog well enough to know that wasn't the case. 

Ado, that is so cool! Jill has been known to run around the yard trying to throw herself the rope toy, but these days I think she's settled down a little and someone generally comes out and throws it for her often enough that she doesn't feel compelled to play fetch on her own, poor thing. 

I think Maslow's theory applies to all animals to one degree or another as well, but I don't think it necessarily applies to motivation when all needs are met. Some dogs love food more than others, even when they're all equally well cared for. I see this more like if basic needs are NOT met, then they will take precedence over other non-essential things. However, if all needs a met, it comes down to what the dog likes best and the pyramid is out of the picture. I think at times like this it helps to look at other animals that have other drives in their lives than dogs. My rabbit has the same needs as a dog, but when she's not hungry, not wanting social attention, not wanting for anything, she might go tidy her house. It's what she likes to do. My previous rabbit liked to explore in her free time. My hare likes to sit on a windowsill and watch the world go by, or he likes to sit somewhere and chew on something. Both will take tasty treats during these times if they feel like it. They will even do something for me to get one if it's easy enough and they're feeling that way inclined. My dog, she's a very social girl and she likes to hang out with other dogs or people. As soon as food is on the scene, though, that's all she wants. She won't go and seek food, she just wants it every time it appears and unlike the buns, will do anything for it if she could concentrate on something other than the food (example, me) for long enough to work out what she needs to do to get the food from me.
 

Cita

 I also consider the bottom 3 to be essential, basic needs. I know my dog would rather go without food than go without human companionship, for example. Heck, me too, for that matter.

If neither of you has ever experienced starvation, I doubt you could accurately make such a statement.  Basic needs are survival needs, and most organisms will fulfill the other needs only after their survival needs are met.  After all, if you don't survive, no sense worrying about who you keep company with (except in the afterlife, perhaps). 

corvus

I think Maslow's theory applies to all animals to one degree or another as well, but I don't think it necessarily applies to motivation when all needs are met.

First thank you Corvus and Spiritdog for jumping in to help stimulate this conversation.  This pyramid has been on my mind for the longest time.  It is not that I am applying the pyramid to observations but looking for explanation of my observations that lead me to drift to Maslow.

Corvus, Maslow I believe says that there is always a need that is active.  There is no such thing as " when all needs are met".  Survival needs such as hunger will come around time and time again but the behavior associated with the degree will differ depending on intensity of the need.

Spiritdog, do you have a comment on the OP statement.  In other threads I did ask what was the definition of basic needs and got no response.  You referred to the term "living needs" that I assumed defined basic needs as Maslow defines Bio and Physio needs.

 I tend to think of basic needs as survival needs.  Anything else speaks to the "gravy" of life.  Which, of course, is important, both to dogs and to humans.  But, I do think that withholding a reward is fine - because it's temporary.  Same way we might tell a child that he cannot watch TV unless he does his homework first.

spiritdogs

 I tend to think of basic needs as survival needs.  Anything else speaks to the "gravy" of life.  Which, of course, is important, both to dogs and to humans.  But, I do think that withholding a reward is fine - because it's temporary.  Same way we might tell a child that he cannot watch TV unless he does his homework first.

I have absolutely no problem with food treats in the short term and yes it is temporary disappointment for most dogs and they can handle it when a treat is withheld.  But I want awareness of a method effect on the dog when extremes situation are presented.  Having that awareness gives me the knowledge of what method works best in the dog upfront.  And I don't have one dog that is going to live with me the rest of its life, I have fosters and they are temporary and are unique and react differently.

This subject is important to me and I can only think of it in the abstract but the real parts that apply are vague in my mind.  You studied and major is psych, you must have thoughts about human motivation theory and how they can be altered to fit the dog....I have even consider Herzberg and the X Y theories and others.  

DPU

But I want awareness of a method effect on the dog when extremes situation are presented.  Having that awareness gives me the knowledge of what method works best in the dog upfront.

This doesn't make sense to me, can you explain? 

DPU

Benedict

The SECOND I'd unclipped his lead, Ben did a u-turn and ran 100 feet back to the agility field to start jumping.  

Some dogs really do love it for the sake of it. 

That could very well be or like a playbow, it could be an invitation to continue the social event.  You were present after all.

I would like to comment about the social aspect of agility training.   At my first class with Petie all those years ago(this was the very first class that he had ever had in anything and was a young dog), the class took a break, we all took our dogs outside to a fenced yard.  There were two instructors, the one instructor came out to join us and asked me if I was aware that my dog had left me?  Embrassed I said no, not the entire time, I thought he had been in the yard.  This instructor then went on to tell me how my dog came into the building (instructor was in an office watching from a window).  Petie apparently ran in and did the several pieces of lowered equipment that we had learned that night, DW, Frame, Tunnels and jumps, he made a circut of the ring and then came flying back outside.  Considering that it was his first time at class and seeing agility equipment, him associating it with a social event etc doesn't hold up.  Now it is also not desirable on any level to have a dog that is going to compete learn to self reward themselves with the equipment.  It is well known that we train to not let this happen or you can expect a career of the dog picking it's own course etc.

Lynn