the role of punishment

Dog_ma

I'm also wryly amused that my insistence on using the technical definition of punishment has got people thinking I'm overbearing and conventionally punishing.

I certainly don't think you are that way! I was just expressing that there are other ways to get the same behaviour without using a punisher. It was conversation simply meant for enlightenment to learn about the way that other people do things.

I don't happen to think you are overbearing or conventionally punishing at all! And please don't bow out! I think this is an interesting conversation, I'm glad to see you pressing issues and questioning things, such as the body blocking issue, so that we can discuss it in more depth and determine what each other thinks of certain words. As I've said before, when it's a punishment, I call it a punishment. And I do use some punishments. I just don't happen to use a body block as a punishment, as a prevention in its essence is not a punishment. And I use it as a prevention, to aid in extinction.

 Well, since I was invited ... LOL

The reason I consider a body block punishment *to a dog* is because they are intensely social creatures who communicate via body language.If Sasha body blocks Eko, that isn't as neutral as a fence that is in the way.

And I can only long for the day my house is calm enough to ensure that a dog never ever has a chance to mouth a shoe. I have a four year old! Things ... migrate.  

Dog_ma

The reason I consider a body block punishment *to a dog* is because they are intensely social creatures who communicate via body language.If Sasha body blocks Eko, that isn't as neutral as a fence that is in the way.

But is a body block by a dog the same as a body block as I have described? The dog that is body blocking is also communicating a lot to the other dog via body language - giving eye, perhaps tense, forward mouth, ears up, tail up, etc. I'm just standing there like an erect blob looking at the wall mentally reciting the 12 pairs of cranial nerves and 31 pairs of spinal nerves  *G*

I agree that a body block by a dog can be (can be, but isn't always - again it depends on whether or not it changes future behaviour) a form of punishment. But the dog is receiving constant feedback from the other dog - I'm not really providing any feedback except for when they turn away - then I reinforce. I don't give really give any feedback while the dog thinks about it though and considers its options.

Dog_ma

And I can only long for the day my house is calm enough to ensure that a dog never ever has a chance to mouth a shoe. I have a four year old! Things ... migrate.  

Ah, but who said the house at home was calm? *G* I didn't say the home was calm, just that the dogs are generally very good at leaving things alone that aren't theirs (the possession coming from a human frame of mind, not a dog frame of mind). Things migrate here too, although less than likely would with a four year old for certain. But when it comes to puppies (or older dogs that dont' know better) - I don't worry about the magically migrating items, just the dog. I would consider them opportunities to redirect and reinforce! If I have a puppy or a dog with established issues, I do work on managing the environment while I am not working at the issue itself, but because we live in non-sterile environments, and there is always something around the home, it just requires a little bit of canine supervision.

But hey, I'm not perfect, and neither are the dogs *G*. Don't ever think it comes across that way. That doesn't mean that I haven't goofed up and the dogs haven't gotten ahold of something while still in the learning process (and undies/socks look so similar to some toys that they are sometimes played with with glee, if left out), or that something new doesn't come into the home that gathers a dog's attention. For instance this year I bought a set of new highliters. For some reason Shimmer finds them quite interesting. I have no idea why but she does. I noticed this when she gently picked one up while I was reading (they were lying on the bed). I asked her to give it to me and she happily did.  So we back up in teaching and work on redirecting away from them onto appropriate items while I have them out (at this time though I can also use a leave it cue, and reward for that - a step that puppies don't tend to have while house proofing at first). I don't punish her for having it, or even for expressing interest in it. Eventually she will get over their novelty and realize she's wasting her time with them, and forget about them as she does the other items that are around the home. Life with dogs is joyous that way in that nothing is ever static, and the dogs will let you know if there's something you need to work on with them.

Kim_MacMillan

snownose

Isn't "Leave it" just about the same as using"Eh, Eh".......?

 

You might think so, and it might even result in the same behaviour - leaving something alone - but the motivation behind what I do and what you do - the reason the dog is performing the behaviour, is likely quite different. Or maybe not. It depends on how you teach "Eh eh".

But the way I teach it is that the dog thinks that "leaving things alone" is a good thing - that better things will happen if they do, rather than worrying about punishment if they don't. It's a subtle difference, but a clear one.

In the beginning of teaching I use verbal and point my finger and redirect the dog.....now, all it takes is the verbal.....and they know it means move away from there......this works for me quiet well, since I take my dogs with me a lot....and when roaming through the woods, going to the river and other places I don't have to play trade for something they want to sniff and carry....they just move away from it....

snownose

don't have to play trade for something they want to sniff and carry....they just move away from it....

Oh, certainly, I don't have to either. Hopefully you didn't get the impression that I did have to do such a thing, because it would be inaccurate. I too take Gaci and Shimmer on long hikes through fields and wooded areas, with rivers and streams and bridges and such. I'm glad I don't have to trade things up every time we're out, and I would feel badly for anybody that did!

For me, it doesn't necessarily mean move away from there, just to leave it be. So in the example with Shimmer in another post and the new highliters I bought that she was interested in, I could say "Mine" and she would just lay down beside them and go to sleep. I don't care if she didn't move away, just not to interfere with them.

But you can see there is a difference in the motivation behind the cues, even though the behaviours are (almost - since my girl doesn't have to move away) the same.

(look ma, loose leash!.....it's dragging on the ground, attached as it's right next to a busy road). My other picture is better, but this is the only one I had uploaded. Coming from a dog that digs through four feet of snow to follow a mouse scent, or down dark holes in the earth to find potential prey, who is a living hunter in the woods, I think it's pretty darn good of her.

Dog_ma

FourIsCompany

If I were to use ONLY reward and never use punishment, I would only be giving 1/2 the information I have available. I would be saying, in essence, "This is what I want. This is what I want. This is what I want." That doesn't tell the dog when he's doing something that I don't want.

 

How confusing would life be if no one ever gave you feedback on what *not* to do? Either as a person or a dog.

I'm coming in late to this one, but I have to answer this because I can answer it BEAUTIFULLY!  I am going to tell you all about my driving lessons again.

Well, as some of you might know, my driving wasn't going too well.  I'd actually EXPERIENCED the "shutting down" and I walked away from that thinking, "wow, so that's what it feels like for a dog".  The VAST majority of the time, my driving instructor was not angry with me, nor was she impatient or unkind.  She was very very nice.  She DID give me a lot of "information" about where I was going wrong.  Why was I so frustrated?  Why did I feel like I just couldn't do it?  I was on the verge of quitting my lessons.  A couple of times I'd be almost in tears.

I spoke to another instructor, in a last ditch attempt to crack it.  He was honest with me and said that, for the stage I was at and the number of hours practise I'd had, he would expect me to be TWICE my age!!  I was very very far behind.  What was wrong?

We went out for a little drive.  I made several fundamental mistakes (forgetting to indicate on a couple of occasions for example).  He ignored them!  He focused on what I did RIGHT at any given time.  If I felt nervous or fretted because I'd gone wrong, he reassured me and told me hey, don't worry about it!  And where I did do something wrong, something that would be better not repeated, rather than draw attention to that he would say (for example): "When you are approaching a roundabout, just do this".  (Can you say, "alternative desirable behaviour"????!!!)

You know what, I can drive.  I just need a bit more practise, especially on manouvures, and then I can pass my test.

I don't think I am a "soft" person.  No way, I am as thick skinned as they come!  So WHY did I do so poorly with an instructor who gave me criticism, depsite the fact it was kind, constructive and well-intentioned?  I actually LIKED my driving instructor.  She is a very nice person.  Why was the learning process inhibited?  Why did I dread my lessons?

But Chuffy, that is a situation in which you experienced an excess of feedback on what not to. I'm not an advocate of that, not at all.

I was speaking of what it would be like to have ZERO feedback on what not to do. I'd find that difficult, if I was also expected to live amicably with others.  

Chuffy

Why was the learning process inhibited?  Why did I dread my lessons?

Because you were nervous, had some anxiety about failure, maybe some embarrassment, you attach negativity to doing something "wrong". There's no indication that dogs make any such associations. There's nothing to indicate that dogs feel that they should do better or get down on themselves or feel bad for doing something "wrong". As far as I know, they don't keep score and they don't have all those associations that humans do.

Kim_MacMillan

(look ma, loose leash!.....it's dragging on the ground, attached as it's right next to a busy road). My other picture is better, but this is the only one I had uploaded. Coming from a dog that digs through four feet of snow to follow a mouse scent, or down dark holes in the earth to find potential prey, who is a living hunter in the woods, I think it's pretty darn good of her.

Yes, it's good of her.... *content removed, rude*

snownose

Yes, it's good of her.... *previously removed content*

I give up. Seriously. I wasn't pointing "anything" out. It was a cute picture that happens to fit in with the discussion of teaching "Leave it" to dogs. Nothing more.

*content removed, personally directed/off topic* 

I'm out folks. Ciao. Too bad another thread ended up heading in that same ole direction again.

Kim_MacMillan

I'm out folks. Ciao. Too bad another thread ended up heading in that same ole direction again.

*content removed, personally directed, PM*

And in the end, I asked you a legit question about prey drive and your experience....I wasn't trying to look better....its' just something I have been working with for years.....sorry, if that upsets you......but, i worked hard to be able to incorporate different animals, rescues or not.....

snownose

I wasn't trying to look better....

Good! Because you certainly aren't coming across as better.  Your dogs may not chase cats, but you can't seem to keep your teeth off of Kim.

I would say more, but (a) against the rules and (b) wouldn't change a darn thing anyway.

You consistently attack Kim, who is unfailingly polite. She is one of the more dignified posters on the forum. Yes, she's enthusiastic. Yes, she's young. Yes, not everyone sees things her way. (I often don't). Big whoop. Diversity isn't as scary as people seem to think.

- - -

Kim, keep on with your bad self.  

Moderator speaking...

Folks..., the snark needs to stop.

Do not post if all you are doing is attempting to make less of another person's training achievements.

Do not respond or rise to bait when it is dangled, unless you are prepared to become equally at fault for resulting thread deterioration.

Two people make the choice to get snarky...it is never a one sided issue. Make the right choice...and the choice that is adult, and of most use to the forum...or move on to other threads that do not cause you find yourself on this sort of crossroad.

Dog_ma

Your dogs may not chase cats, but you can't seem to keep your teeth off of Kim.

When a person continuosly preaches +R methods and points out the finer points of that method, but also minimizing the success of other methods, I certainly would like to hear what their experience is.....so, I get my dogs to move away from items, including markers, but they also move away from small animals and I can go to bed at night not worrying that a rescue is trying to chew up one of my cats or the pet rabbit....

 I work my behind off to make sure animals have a second chance, instead of breeding more, as so many other people do.....does that even sink into *content removed, rude*