the role of punishment

This discussion has turned deliciously interesting.

Okay, so can we go back to my example for a moment? I'm going to use my hare rather than my dog because absurdly I feel more confident in my reading of him than Penny. It's the same thing for both of them, though.

So with Kit, I'm beginning to wonder if this was actually a case of classical conditioning which then sort of evolved into something else. Kit perhaps first learnt that "oi" means I'm going to get up and chase him. He discovers this activity is kinda fun and it becomes a reward. So, after a while he learns that chewing on a cord or a random item he finds on the floor illicits an "oi" from me and he gets chased. As he gets older, he finds being chased less fun and more often he doesn't want to be chased. He's weaned now and prefers to chew on things than be chased, but he still knows how to get me to say "oi" and chase him. So we get to a point where he knows certain objects get an "oi" every single time he fiddles with them. So he hops into the room and I watch him go to chomp on an item of clothing, then I say "oi" and he doesn't feel like being chased and so he leaves it alone in favour of doing something more peaceful and soothing. Over time, he goes from hearing "oi" and having to be chased, to just hearing "oi" and then eventually he doesn't even look at the item. But then one day he feels playful and he comes over to the item and pretends to nibble on it. I say "oi", he nibbles harder, I chase him, he's happy. Next day he doesn't want to be chased again and again doesn't even look at the object.

So the word followed by the chase did result in a decrease in behaviour recurring. However, I wonder if this was because it was a punishment or because he just didn't want to play so much anymore. I mean, Penny knows that when I say "Go for a swim" she's welcome to jump in the water and I'll wait until she's had her swim and come back. However, although she enjoys swimming, she doesn't necessarily want to do it every single time I tell her she can. Sometimes she'll decide not to because she doesn't feel like a swim right now. During the winter, she swims less. It would be silly to say my suggestion that she go for a swim is a punishment because she is swimming less than she did in the summer. She's swimming less because she doesn't feel like it as much. It's cold. Come summer, she'll jump in every single time I suggest it. It's not quite comparable, but there are possible similarities. Or maybe my hare really doesn't like to be chased and it is a punishment.

corvus

Over time, he goes from hearing "oi" and having to be chased, to just hearing "oi" and then eventually he doesn't even look at the item. But then one day he feels playful and he comes over to the item and pretends to nibble on it. I say "oi", he nibbles harder, I chase him, he's happy. Next day he doesn't want to be chased again and again doesn't even look at the object.

So the word followed by the chase did result in a decrease in behaviour recurring. However, I wonder if this was because it was a punishment or because he just didn't want to play so much anymore

I wonder, too. Without a specific time frame, it sounds more like maturity or aging. That is, to him, the chewing of this or that to make you say oi is fun and he has you well trained.

It reminds me a little of the joke about the animal behaviorist who puts a chimp in a room with an observation hole in the door. The scientist looks through the peep hole and sees the eye of the chimp staring back at him. I think his behavior that made you say oi and chased him was a cue for play that you sometimes engaged in, sometimes, didn't, he sometimes followed up on, sometimes, didn't. Maybe he was just making sure he could still get your attention, if necessary. Say, something was wrong. And he needed you to follow him. He could come in, start chewing on a cord, you say oi but stay there. He might have to chew on the cord until you get out of the chair and follow him. Then he could run to whatever he thought the problem was.

Given that reinforcers and punishers are all in the eye of the beholder, perhaps at times oi is a reinforcer ("I feel like being chased";) and other times it is a punisher ("I don't want to be chased.";) Old school behaviorists would have a conniption at that idea, because you can't measure the feelings of a hare, but to heck with radical behaviorists anyhow.  

To be, or not to be.

That is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to ....

Say oi, get up and after the dog.

Or, put another shirimp on the barbe.

That's Vinia, I'm the Aussie. Although oddly we call them prawns not shrimp, except for when we're putting them on the barbie. But I think that's more to satisfy the cliche saying than because we ever actually think of them as shrimp. To be honest I remember asking what a shrimp was at the age of about 10 when someone mentioned putting one on the barbie. The person was another 10 year old, and they didn't really know, either.

And not all Aussies barbecue or have barbecued shrimp. I was just being cheeky, hence the devil emoticon. Actually, I got that phrase from Jim Carrey in "Dumb and Dumber" when he talks to an Austrian model and mistakenly uses an Australian accent.

Just as someone could be cheeky and say "ya'll" (pronounced yawl) even though I hardly every use that contraction.

Ok I'm not too bright! Why did I think you were from NZ? We need an emoticon with a dunce cap.  

 I don't know! But that's okay. Thanks for helping me work this punishment thing out, guys. I've decided I'm comfortable with punishments that are punishments some days and rewards other days. It reassures me that it's not too punishing if they're still happy to offer the behaviour in certain circumstances. I think it's good to keep punishments mild enough that the dog still feels like they have a choice. Even if it's something I really don't want them doing, I'm happy to teach them a mild, conditional punishment (is that what it's called?) and use it as a form of communication, but I think it's valuable to know when dogs really don't want to do something. Although there are some things I just won't tolerate. I just can't think of any right now because it's been so long since Penny was a puppy. I am so going to get a rude shock when I finally get another puppy.

That's an interesting wrinkle I have not considered. An action that is considered punishing one day, and not the next. Or, maybe the dog's threshhold for what is punishing changes with the context. One day, you can say oi and it stops something. The next day, it doesn't punish or not enough, as the reward of the chase exceeds the punishment of oi. That must be one special oi.

And please, bear with me, I cannot help myself.

"Travelling in a fried-out combie.
On a heavy trail, head full of zombie.
I met a strange lady
She made me nervous.
She took me in and gave me breakfast.

And she said...

Do you come from a land down under?
Where women glow and men plunder.
Can you hear, can you hear the thunder?
You better run, you'd better take cover."

"Land Down Under" by Men At Work.

corvus

Even if it's something I really don't want them doing, I'm happy to teach them a mild, conditional punishment (is that what it's called?)

Conditioned punisher?  (CP+)?

Ron you are too funny! 

Chuffy

Ron you are too funny

Thanks. I just made a video doing "Land Down Under." Now, I've got to spend half a day loading it.

ETA: Just played it back on the computer. It's a digital camera that takes video but the mic is just a cheap little thing that can't handle a concert volume. That is, if you were sitting in front of me, I could make your ears hurt. Well, with the cheap mic, it flattens out the response curve, which makes my voice sound thinner than it is.

Sorry to go OT.