Is this Domiance?

The dog is disobeying commands that he has been taught... commands that he knows. Have you never had a willful dog? One who asks, "What's in it for me"? What makes you think giving him ANOTHER command that he knows will help? He's ALREADY testing her by disobeying a known command. Giving a different known command is only going to give him another place to test. Did you read the first post?

"Fido, sit." Dog walks away.

"Fido, come" Dog continues walking.

"Fido, down" ... You get the idea...

Doesn't sound effective at all. Not all dogs obey every command, even though they know them well. You may not have experience with this. but catering to the dog by finding a command he's willing to follow isn't the way some of us want to go.
 

yeah, but the owner is using a particularly ineffective method: issue a command we know the dog won't obey (OFF, dog ignores it), repeat the OFF command, apply a very ineffective "correction": shove the dog, which the dog appears to be enjoying (all attention is good!), repeat the so-called "correction": basically this protocol is a) teaching the dog to ignore the OFF command and b) is rewarding the dog for ignoring the OFF command and is c) encouraging the dog to come sit on the couch in future to enjoy all this fun attention, and isn't it so much fun to make mom mad? 

This dog is "undermotivated": he is asking what's in it for me if I get off? he's getting more for ignoring the command than he is getting for obeying- if he gets off the couch on command or never gets on the couch in the first place he gets no attention. I'm not sure a correction would be effective, because he's still getting attention for his mis-behavior and not getting attention for the desired behavior, that of staying off the couch.

If you don't want the dog on the couch, ever, having an OFF command is just pointless. To fix/avoid this behavior, the most effective protocol is: remember to offer the dog attention when he isn't trying to get on the couch;  try to catch him before he gets on the couch and re-direct him to some other behavior; and I personally would booby-trap the couch- put a scat mat on the place where he tries to sit and completely ignore him as the couch corrects him.

If you have a really pushy obnoxious hard dog you yourself applying corrections to the dog for rule violations is not very effective- the dog enjoys making you mad and seeing what he can get away with; all the attention and being able to "get away with it" is very rewarding to this type of dog and physical corrections and verbal reprimands are often not sufficient motivation to stop the behavior. They respond far better to a non-confrontational NILIF program: you want attention? you don't get attention for getting on the couch, you get attention for lying on your bed.

FourIsCompany

The dog is disobeying commands that he has been taught... commands that he knows. Have you never had a willful dog? One who asks, "What's in it for me"? What makes you think giving him ANOTHER command that he knows will help? He's ALREADY testing her by disobeying a known command. Giving a different known command is only going to give him another place to test. Did you read the first post?

"Fido, sit." Dog walks away.

"Fido, come" Dog continues walking.

"Fido, down" ... You get the idea...

Doesn't sound effective at all. Not all dogs obey every command, even though they know them well. You may not have experience with this. but catering to the dog by finding a command he's willing to follow isn't the way some of us want to go.
 

When have you met Bugsy???  

Seriously I always state that I am not a trained trainer nor multiple dog owner but Bugsy is one very confident, willful dog. he is much better at 2+ than at 11 mos old.  At that point he was much more inclined to do as he liked - and it was always a battle to convince him to do what he KNEW to do and what he had been trained to do over what he wanted to do.

he's still a pushy bugger at times but it is much more manageable as he has finally decided that rewards and praise from us can trump the reward for doing what he wishes to do. 

mudpuppy

yeah, but the owner is using a particularly ineffective method: issue a command we know the dog won't obey (OFF, dog ignores it), repeat the OFF command, apply a very ineffective "correction": shove the dog, which the dog appears to be enjoying (all attention is good!), repeat the so-called "correction": basically this protocol is a) teaching the dog to ignore the OFF command and b) is rewarding the dog for ignoring the OFF command and is c) encouraging the dog to come sit on the couch in future to enjoy all this fun attention, and isn't it so much fun to make mom mad? 

 and you got all of this from my post! **EDITED: Rude Behavior**

 No one mentioned repeating commands as in saying off, off, please get off. Each command is reinforced and he is made to obey them,. he tests all commands but is always made to obey them. My purpose in posting was to show the very stubborn tendancies that Hektor most often displays. I should have know that the two of you would assume and post accordingly.

 **EDITED: Personal Attack** Thankfully it matters not to me, your advice is one I simply ignore whenever posted **EDITED: Rude Behavior**

Dgriego, one thing we did with Ivan (Mr. Stubborn My Way) was to take the fun out of disobeying. Xerxes' puppy push ups are a good example. Be a snot, and you get to do boring drills. No, he didn't jump to it enthusiastically, but the take home message was basically "When I get pushy, my owner is willing to have the patience to bore me to tears. Not fun!" Sure, he got my attention. *grin* Perhaps my attention is not what he wanted? Incompatible commands can be a form of P+. Think drill instructors at Boot Camp. Drop and give me 20 is not really very fun for a stubborn dog.
 

Because Ivan was a few screws short of a stable bookcase, we later needed to use physical corrections. Which were VERY effective. I am not skilled enough to attempt that on my own - we worked with an excellent trainer who simultaneously respected Ivan's anxiety and made it clear that dangerous behavior would not be tolerated. Those corrections were the come-to-Jesus kind, not the nagging kind.

Those kind of corrections might be useful with a hard but sane dog. I don't know, not my expertise and I'd personally rather out stubborn a dog than deliver a strong physical correction. But I can't say corrections of those kind don't work. I've seen them work.  

Dog_ma

Dgriego, one thing we did with Ivan (Mr. Stubborn My Way) was to take the fun out of disobeying. Xerxes' puppy push ups are a good example. Be a snot, and you get to do boring drills.

Dog_ma

 We have started on your advice already. I have been doing some pull drills with Hektor as he seems to get into this state of mind more when he is bored than when not, although sometimes he is testy even after a hard exersise.

 I have been giving him the off command for instance and if he pushs the issue I have been making him do a down stay on his bed. The last couple of times I made him down then put him in his harness and made him walk at heel outside then hitched him to his tire and had him do a couple of laps of pulling. This seems to be helping somewhat. But even so last night we came in from pulling and he went straight over to Gunnar who was sleeping by the fireplace and sat exactly on top of his head!

dgriego

mudpuppy

yeah, but the owner is using a particularly ineffective method: issue a command we know the dog won't obey (OFF, dog ignores it), repeat the OFF command, apply a very ineffective "correction": shove the dog, which the dog appears to be enjoying (all attention is good!), repeat the so-called "correction": basically this protocol is a) teaching the dog to ignore the OFF command and b) is rewarding the dog for ignoring the OFF command and is c) encouraging the dog to come sit on the couch in future to enjoy all this fun attention, and isn't it so much fun to make mom mad? 

 and you got all of this from my post! *PREVIOUSLY EDITED CONTENT*.

 No one mentioned repeating commands as in saying off, off, please get off. Each command is reinforced and he is made to obey them,. he tests all commands but is always made to obey them. My purpose in posting was to show the very stubborn tendancies that Hektor most often displays. I should have know that the two of you would assume and post accordingly.

*PREVIOUSLY EDITED CONTENT* Thankfully it matters not to me, your advice is one I simply ignore *PREVIOUSLY EDITED CONTENT*

 

Wow.  I'm not even going to continue reading after posting this.  I can't believe how much the group of you (those that post in these threads) go at each other.  You all need to take a step back, remove all the past emotion from your minds regarding individual posters and read for the content.  Because what mudpuppy wrote is exactly what I was thinking.  You did not give us lots of info about the situations when this happens, just that it happens.

You could infer the following from your original post.

"I come home from work and I'm tired and I sit on the couch to watch TV.  The dog does this pushy behavior and is this dominance?"

Over simiplified?  Absolutely!  But you do not give more details.  You ask a question about a behavior and you get the solution to the most common problems.  A command is not reinforced enough.  The dog does not "know" the command like you think.

I had an agility student tell me that her dog knew what "jump" meant.  I said ok, from  here (10 feet away) say jump.  The dog did nothing.  Just looked at her.  So that is a common thought when a situation is described where the dog does not follow the command every time. 

But you (the collective you of these threads) should, ahem, grow up. 

and I sit here debating to press the Post button, knowing to get flamed.  But I won't be back to this thread, so I'll never know.   

dgriego

 But even so last night we came in from pulling and he went straight over to Gunnar who was sleeping by the fireplace and sat exactly on top of his head!

I shouldn't laugh, but the image of poor Gunnar with a Hektor hat is pretty amusing.

In that situation, I'd send Hektor to his bed for a down stay. Not in a mad way, of course. (Not that I think you would)

With stubborn dogs you do a whole lotta lather, rinse, repeat.   Not that I have to tell you, LOL! I love Hektor, and I love that he's yours and not mine.

Course, I did just adopt a hound ... better stop laughing before the universe notices. 

um, hello? did you read your own post?

Hektor will try and get on the couch and when told "off" he will swing his hindquarters over and put them on the couch partially, when told "off" he will bark, when you push his hindquarters away from the couch he will turn, bark and place one foot on the couch and will do this until we get up, telling him "no off" and remove him to his bed to lie down. Some times he will do this once and be content, other times he will continue this off and on several times.

why do people bother posting if they aren't going to even consider any of the advice offered? 

 Maybe this is a little off-topic, but I'm wondering what you do if you ask for incompatible behaviour you KNOW the dog knows, and the dog get's all "Shan't!" about that one as well.

I'm picturing Hektor with that evil twinkle in his eye that dogs get when they know they're being naughty and are waiting to see what fun it might create. It always makes me giggle.

When Pyry was small, he used to sit on the cats. For some reason he seemed to think cats were just big fluffy pillows. I watched him turn around, back up to the cat, do a quick check over his shoulder to make sure he was properly lined up, then plonk on the cat. I guess he must have grown out of it. That was a different context, though.  

The whole sitting one on any animal had me chuckle.....I just never experienced that before, the dogs or cats in our house wouldn't let that happen.......as far as the herders trying to do anything with the cats, it's herding.....and that goes on for only so long, the cats usually are sick of it right away and let them know or I interervene.....

Donna, what happens when you bodyblock and redirect the dog, does he respect that?

FourIsCompany

The dog is disobeying commands that he has been taught... commands that he knows. Have you never had a willful dog? One who asks, "What's in it for me"? What makes you think giving him ANOTHER command that he knows will help? He's ALREADY testing her by disobeying a known command. Giving a different known command is only going to give him another place to test. Did you read the first post?

"Fido, sit." Dog walks away.

"Fido, come" Dog continues walking.

"Fido, down" ... You get the idea...

Doesn't sound effective at all. Not all dogs obey every command, even though they know them well. You may not have experience with this. but catering to the dog by finding a command he's willing to follow isn't the way some of us want to go.
 

If you have a dog that occasionally disobeys, there are polite ways to insist.  If it's happening all the time, as in your scenario, something has gone horribly wrong in the training process, or you are dealing with a dog that has zero interest in you or any motivator - so rare it's almost not worth mentioning.  Also consider intelligent disobedience.  But, remember that I NEVER said that you cannot use punishment, only that it should NEVER be your first option in training. (A lot of people forget that.)  However, I STILL think that most cases of "disobedience" have more to do with trainer inadequacy than doggy wanting to be a jerk.  Not that it doesn't happen, but IMO, not so very much with dogs that receive proper training in the first place.  Example of a penalty that I do use.  Dog is asked to "come".  He doesn't.  I put him immediately back on a long line (if you don't come every time, you don't get freedom - period).  Call the dog - he doesn't come   He gets reeled in gently, but I show him the nice tripe he could have had if he had simply come when I called, but I don't give him any.  I let him get distracted again.  (This can take a while - after all, it was tripe).  Then, I call again.  Dog comes to get the tripe, and he gets it for 20 seconds!!! (Count - it's a long time to reward a dog).  Dog learns "when I hear the come word, she might have something really good for me". 

Now, I know that a lot of you will give me the same tired excuses about food, long lines, whatever. The reward does not have to be food - for Sequoyah it was often a game of frisbee.  But, remember, I am the one whose hound comes when called, and whose other dogs do, too.  (And, the one who lost a dog HBC once, in my youth, who vowed to never let it happen again).  This isn't the only tactic I use, but it is a penalty that the dog does not associate with anything except absence of a reward.  No pain, no batteries. 

spiritdogs

Call the dog - he doesn't come   He gets reeled in gently, but I show him the nice tripe he could have had if he had simply come when I called, but I don't give him any.  I let him get distracted again.  (This can take a while - after all, it was tripe).  Then, I call again.  Dog comes to get the tripe, and he gets it for 20 seconds!!! (Count - it's a long time to reward a dog).  Dog learns "when I hear the come word, she might have something really good for me". 

What if the distraction is a bigger reward than the tripe ?

Dog_ma

In that situation, I'd send Hektor to his bed for a down stay. Not in a mad way, of course. (Not that I think you would)

With stubborn dogs you do a whole lotta lather, rinse, repeat.

 I will say one thing; he certainly keeps me on my toes. I have at least gotten my husband to recognize that Hektor is testing him

Been there, done that and got my t-shirt.  I have many times in the beginning attempted to reach an understanding and respect for certain individuals and received nothing much for it. I have yet to read a polite well intended post from some persons and I just do not have the desire or inclincation to attempt it anymore.

snownose

Donna, what happens when you bodyblock and redirect the dog, does he respect that?

 Yes he listens and he responds, the thing that gets me with Hektor is that regardless of how many times you instruct him on what behaviour is not acceptable he will at some point attempt to display it and then will give you that sheepish look like "oh you mean I should not sit on Gunnar's head, I should not go and sit on Joshua (my son)'s head while he is watching TV on the floor!".  When he comes up to the couch, if the DH and I are sitting on it he will put a paw up, and I will point and say "off" and he will walk away. Later he will come up, lean against my DH's legs and slowly manuever his bottom so that sometimes one back leg is sort of on the couch and he will stand there. When I look up and see him I will tell him , Off and point and once again he will walk away. There is always time frames between his little attempts and it is hard to not laugh as he is very comical in how he tries so hard to be nonchalant about his activities.

 With learning new things he is very quick to learn and walking at heel, sitting, staying, tracking, pulling or any other commands that he knows do not require this constant reinforcement to get him to execute them, it is only the things where he is being denied something that he desires that require the constant reinforcement. I am also trying to reward him constantly for good behaviour. If he goes to his bed and lays quietly while we watch television I will go to him ever so often and tell him what a good boy he is, and give him a treat. He does not get this if he is constantly getting up and testing us.

 I am having him neutered on the 30th of this month. I was at first going to wait until he was around 18 months but have changed my mind and decided to do it now in hopes that it will help him somewhat in his behaviour.  

To add for those who feel that it is my incompetance that is at fault:

 I will be the first one to admit that I do not know everything nor am I the greatest dog handler in the world. I also know that a lot of my problem is the fact that my family does not behave in a consistent manner with Hektor and, he is not the type of dog that can be allowed to get away with much.

 But I do think if I were completely incompetent in handling him I would be seeing a lot more problems with him and he would not have graduated at the top of his classes in the two classes he had been in, nor would he be successful in all of the things he can do.  He would not come when called, he would not walk correctly on a leash nor would he perform commands at my request so although I may have not figured out the exact thing needed to get him to stop testing, I do not think it is incompetence that is the problem.

 My version of the issue is that he is a hard dog, he comes from very strong hunting lines, his father is imported from Argentina and was bred by the grandson of the man who developed the breed so he is from hardcore lines, bred to be stubborn and think for himself, bred to be tenacious and pig-headed as any dog that has to turn and look for guidance from his handler when facing a 400lb boar is not going to last very long.

Some of the quotes from the man who originally developed the breed, ones I knew about but never really analyzed until recently show the general hardness of the breed was something he intended to create.

“The Dogo is a dog that is bred to die.” Not bred to fight, not bred to endure, but bred to die and I have read a few stories from hunters of these dogs giving it their very all until the last breath expired although they sustained gruesome wounds that would take a normal dog out of the hunt completely. What kind of dog could continue to attack and hold a boar while it’s intestines were strewn out upon the ground? Even bear dogs I knew as a kid quit at that point.

“ Another breed will attack an intruder until he is stabbed, clubbed or shot, a Dogo will do so until he is dead.”

 This one I hope and pray I never have an opportunity to witness nor put to the test, but I believe it to be true.

 Hektor’s bloodlines are heavy Argentinean and it is very possible that he would have been best suited to a home where he could go out twice a week and pit himself against wild pigs as that is what he was bred to do. It is our great hope to test him in the field this year and arrange that he hunt at least 3 or 4 times a year, we are trying now to hook up with some folks who hunt pig here in NM with dogs.

 Anyway he is a hard dog, but he is mine now and I intend to do everything I can to socialize and teach him so that he lives a long and productive life in our family. It would be nice to be able to get assistance and advice without feeling like every time I ask for it my competence is being called into question.