OP deleted.

Deleted. Feel like I was just asking for people to attack me.

Chelsea--I just wanted to say I know how you feel.  I manage and manage and every once in awhile someone will do something stupid which I've got to take responsiblity for. 

It might have gotten lost in all this but definitely leave that webmaster harness on her at all times so you can use the handle if needed.  Or they also make these longer handle attachments to clip onto the harness or collar so you could grab her even easier. 

Just keep doing what your doing.  You can't control every move someone makes, mistakes are going to happen. 

I just take each mistake that happens and try to figure a way that it will not happen a second time, that's all. 

chelsea_b

They live in the same house, and are never together. Rotating doggies.

 

Ok this might be one of the reasons they attack each other, instead of preventing you are just avoiding a chance for them to know one to another better, i know you are afraid but I really think that their relation to each other is not as bad as you imagine

chelsea_b

She runs out into the living room, and starts sniffing Jaz. No big deal

These are the best news, they dont hate each other at all, this behavior means that they can be socialized!!

Ok now, all this:

chelsea_b

It's like this "my dog vs. your dog" thing to her

 

chelsea_b

To be clear, I DON'T expect them to ever be fine together in the house.

chelsea_b

I think SHE's scared of him, because he's bigger than her..and she probably knows he could kill her if he wanted to..and it's a "get him before he gets me" kind of thing. I have this theory that as a pit bull, he's a lot harder for her to read than other breeds. I had this idea in my head (don't know where it came from) that pit bulls HAD to be hard to read to participate in dog fights.

This might be the reason why you have tried and failed, believe me, it does NOT matter that he is bigger, it does NOT matter that he "could" kill her, it does NOT matter that he is a pitbull, it really does not, she KNOWS he is afraid of her, dogs are EXPERTS on reading body language, she knows that he has the tail between his legs, she knows his face is telling her "please dont hurt me", she knows that he does not represent a danger for her, she might not even try to do anything to him, she maybe only wants to know him better but it seems that he is way more under socialized than her and that makes him run away

What might trigger the attacks are your sister and your attitude towards their relationship, since they are experts on reading body language they look at you both first BEFORE doing anything, the prove is that she didnt do anything until your sister flipped out, in this instance for example one member of the "other pack that lives in the house"  (your sister) started to "bark and being aggressive" towards "my pack and me" (you and Chelsea) therefore "i need to attack because we are being attacked". Your sister does not even have to scream to trigger an attack, the dog reads that your sister is tense, that her facial muscles start to change because the tension, arms, shoulders, etc. THATS when your dog thinks an attack might be coming, she might be even be looking at you to see your body language, even when you dont noticed, the simple fact of thinking "I DON'T expect them to ever be fine together in the house" changes your body language even a little bit, which also helps her to think "well my pack is also showing signs of tension, something is going to brake out here in one second", the funny thing is that its mostly sure that your sister's dog is ACTUALLY sending and showing signals to Chelsea that are totally the opposite, you know, the ones that say "please dont hurt me" but since your sister is flipping out and you probably are tense because you know what it might be coming then Chelsea decides to attack the "weakest member of the opposite pack"

I would recommend (just an opinion) to stop the negative attitude that they dont get along because that (and maybe only that) might be triggering the fights, if i were you i would put the muzzle on your dog again and i will go to the back yard with both dogs and do some socializing sessions with both dogs WITHOUT your sister being present, be sure that you breathe deeply and are the calmest that you can be to avoid sending tense signals to the dogs, just release them and turn around, like if you dont care whats going on, your dog will look at you for guidance on how to proceed, once she sees that you are looking at the sky enjoying the day she will realize that there is nothing to be alert for (is 2 against one, the other member of "my pack" seems not to be worried and the member of "the other pack" is sending nonthreatening  signals) you will see that your sister's dog will also realize that your dog is actually just trying to meet him and the muzzle will help to avoid any kind of accident

You have said "for a couple years I've known and pretty much done nothing. It's overwhelming, but that's no excuse. I guess I'm just lazy." please dont be, your dog needs your help to overcome her issues and every day that passes by is one more day that she is not 100% happy

rwbeagles

I believe you can install a baby gate on a door jamb and still have the door open and close. I'd look into that.

 

 

You took the words out of my mouth.  

Be proactive rather than reactive.  Set your dogs up to succeed rather than fail. 

chelsea_b

I'm either gonna cry or throw up any second here.

 

Oh, no... Don't do that. The point I wanted to get across is that Cherokee's problems need to be seen as your problems, not other people's. Yes, your sister's actions add to the mess, but there's really no need to blame anyone. But when you say things like, "She nipped someone ONCE, because he was drunk...", it makes me wonder if you're seeing the situation in a clear light. She didn't nip the guy because he was drunk. She nipped him because she bites. She's aggressive. It shouldn't matter if someone is drunk around her or not. And "Little nip on his finger taught him." Taught him what? He is not the one who needed the lesson here. You are.

I just see a thread of not taking responsibility throughout both of your posts here. And I honestly think that that's your first step. You blame the other dog, your sister, the drunk guy, when blame should not even be an issue. Responsibility should. When Cherokee does something, the first thing you need to do is think, "How did I allow that and how can I make sure it doesn't happen again"? NOT - My sister is an idiot and doesn't know about dogs. Do you see what I mean?

You say, "She's never ever injured another dog. One time she tore my aunt's dog's ear a little..." That's injuring another dog. My dogs play fight like CRAZY and never have they injured each other. And you go on to excuse it by saying, "that's a pretty common and non-serious result" I strongly disagree.

I'm not trying to lay blame, I'm trying to get you to realize the seriousness of the situation, because it sounds like you don't, to me. Maybe it's because you are used to living in this situation and have become somewhat desensitized to it, but I'm here to tell you that if my dog ever "nipped" someone or made another dog bleed, I would be mortified and make 100% sure that it never happened again.

What do you think about the idea of having her on a leash in the same room with Jaz? As I see it, Cherokee is defending her turf from this stranger that doesn't belong in the house. I would take them for long, brisks walks together, then bring them in the house and just watch TV or something with them being in the same room, leashed. Let them get used to each other's presence. This might be a good time to have the muzzle on Cherokee in case she gets away from you. At least she wouldn't hurt Jaz. Cherokee has to get used to another dog sharing her space.

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm attacking you. I'm not. I am just telling you what I think.  

One more thing: You put this thread in "General Discussion". It's telling to me that you put it here instead of in "Dealing with Aggression". Cherokee's issues are not General Behavior Issues, IMO.

I would teach Cherokee to sit and wait when a door is opened, she cannot go through the door unless you give a verbal command with a corresponding hand signal.  I recently taught this to both of my dogs.  One of my dogs doesn't have a good recall yet (at least not outside) and he knows how to push open the doors.  The other dog is like Jaz, she avoids conflict.  Our neighbors have a young, untrained, rambunctious pit bill that is often off lead or is pulling a cinder block (their idea of training - can still easily get in our yard, just has to pull his block).  He often lunges at Kenya and she kinda spazzes out.  So, to give myself enough time to get on the porch and put my boots on before Coke opens the door and runs away and enough time to make sure Caddy is not running loose in our yard, I decided to teach both dogs to just sit and wait until I am outside and give the go-ahead.  Now I'm not the type of person that believes your dogs won't see you as a leader and will walk all over you if you don't train them to go through the doors second, I just decided to try it because it has a practical use for me since we don't have a fence in yard and one dog wants to escape while the other is terrorized by the neighbor's dog.  Both dogs caught on rather quickly.  They must sit and wait, give me enough space to get out.  Then, I release them with "ok" and a swing of the hand.  I do the same going in, b/c I usually want to wipe their feet first.

chelsea_b

I'm not asking how I can make these dogs fine together 24/7..all I asked for was how to help prevent an instant scuffle if they do slip through the cracks and end up in the same room. I guess there's no way to prevent that. The management goes FINE. This is the FIRST time in like a year and a half that one of them has slipped passed while the other was out and they met face to face. The other scuffles have come from trying to introduce them, and one when Sarah "thought" Cherokee was in my room, closed my door, and let Jaz out. Turns out Cherokee wasn't in my room...

     This is a very similar situation to what I went through about 2yrs ago. Had a GSD and a Beagle bitch, raised together, never had a history of problems. Until the Shepherd's health went downhill & the two became bitter enemies. Was forced to seperate the two bitches 24/7. The Shepherd was either upstairs or in the yard, and the Beag had the run of the first floor and basement. I'd successfully kept them seperated for 18 months w/o incident until one morning, still groggy (my body was up, but my mind was still in bed, lol) I let the dogs into the yard. All the dogs. And the GSD was out there, not in the kennel run ... I'm not going to tell you how to manage YOUR dogs, becuase that's just it, they're yours. I know I wouldn't have listened, and didn't listen, when clueless people shoved their opinions down my throat. I'm just gonna tell you what I personally took from the experience ... I will never seperate two sparring dogs again, and this is why.

     When you seperate dogs, their frustration, aggression build up. They know the other dog is around, they want to get at it, but never can. Accidents will always happen. There will be other slip ups, believe me. The next fight will be worse. They will esculate in ferocity and what may happen after a particularly bad fight is that the dogs will seek each other out for a fight. I don't consider a dog fight to be minor just because the wounds left were minor. The wounds inflicted will vary on how fast it was broken up, where the other dog was bitten, etc. I've had mild fights that ended up being a catastrophe, with me nearly dead from falling and being knocked unconscious. Dog fights, every one of them when a med/large dog is involved, have the propensity to be serious, even deadly. So, I do not seperate dogs anymore. Don't tolerate aggression anymore, and an aggressor gets the boot. My rule is that if I need to seperate 2 dogs 24/7, one of them is out.

 

chelsea_b

Both dogs are rescues. Neither of us raised our dogs. Neither was properly socialized. Both show major signs of abuse. They're both total scaredy cats, but they show it in different ways. Cherokee is aggressive and reactive, Jaz doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body.

     Many people mistake genetic temperament problems and/or unsocialized dogs as being abused. That's an assumption you don't have the luxury of making, IMHO. A good number of shelter dogs especially lack positive socialization with humans and other dogs during critical periods of development ... this would be well under 8 weeks of age and things that occur at that stage are imprinted with the dog for the rest of it's life. I know many people who've adopted shy/inhibited/fearful pups from the pound only to realize that a shy 4 month old pup is a shy 4yo dog. You can always IMPROVE behavior with socialization, but you can never UNDO ingrained, severe behavioral issues. My mutt from the pound has gone through extensive socialization, professional training, plus I've kept up his obedience training on a regular basis. We got him @ 5 months and now, at 7yrs, one would look at him and thnik he's vastly improved ... to an extent, he has. But he is an unreliable dog becuase of his fear, and always will be. Obedience has kept this fear in check and has given him something to take him mind off the fears. When push comes to shove, though, despite everything I've done for him, the hundreds of hours of work poured into him - he's the same flaky dog we adopted in 2001.

     He's dog aggro, and tho I don't have to seperate him from the others save for when they're eating, I've avoided countless fights that could have turned deadly with the obedience training. I'd definitely recommend you get Cherokee OB trained, professionally. She needs to be drop dead reliable in her commands. This is worth every penny you will spend, becuase a well trained dog is less unpredictable, and altho the fear still remains, they are not ruled by it. This is a litigious society, and all it will take is for this dog to nip the wrong person, or God forbid, a child. You always have to think worst case scenario, and if she does get out, you want her to stop dead in her tracks, forget all distractions and come to you. When Thunder (mutt) got out of his leash a few years ago, we avoided what may have been a bloodbath when he was about to collide with an off leash pit bull, just with training. So defintiely thing about working more with her on the obedience ... even if she knows obedience, you can never do too much.

     Anyway, I do feel your pain, sorry you had to go through it. Vent away! Dog fights are scary, aren't they? Usually shake us up even more than the dogs, lol.
    

I have never had to deal with an aggressive dog (please see my signature for disclaimer). But I just wanted to add some practical "leadership-type" advice just in case you're interested. If you're not, feel free to disregard. Cesar Millan deals with aggressive dogs all the time. My best advice would be for you to start watching his show. You may not agree with everything he does, but you don't have to, to learn some practical steps to take. You just might pick up some ideas about what you and your sister are doing that is not helping the situation.

Walking the dogs together every day would be the first thing I would do. I also agree with the others that reliable basic obedience commands are a must. I don't know how much exercise Cherokee gets, but she should be getting out and about, not confined to your bedroom. This is probably adding to the problem. You have said that you didn't know where to start. Start with obedience class and regular, brisk walks with Jaz.

Here is a video from CM's show dealing with an aggressive dog who lives with a submissive dog.

Sophie and Riley 

Some very good suggestions have been given.

Personally, I would recommend hands-on, eyes-on help from an experienced, balanced method professional who can offer you more than a the standard blanket diagnosis that your dog is "reacting in fear".

You're in over your head, and this will only get worse.

www.dogpro.org/

 

I know you are not asking to make them like each other 24/7.  But the techniques describe help make that happen but more importantly if they should meet, the fight might be delayed long enough or they might not fight at all.

I have two "alpha" females in my house and one definitely wants to attack the other and I know the other will not back down from a fight.  They are being managed and they are kept separate.  I know I may make a mistake one day and the two will meet.  What I am doing is treating them for calm between a baby gate, feeding their meals where they see each other but the baby gate is inbetween them, and I pet them both at the same time between the baby gates. 

Whats important is that when you have two agressive dogs you need two handlers to control the meeting.  After the one dog has recovered from her spay, we are schedule to go to a local training center where professionals will help and instruct me in getting the two together.  They don't have to like each, its just that the two can not fight.

The last paragraph is why I would not take two dogs together on a walk where at least one is aggressive toward the other.  You need two handlers.

FourIsCompany

chelsea_b

I'm either gonna cry or throw up any second here.

 

Oh, no... Don't do that. The point I wanted to get across is that Cherokee's problems need to be seen as your problems, not other people's. Yes, your sister's actions add to the mess, but there's really no need to blame anyone. But when you say things like, "She nipped someone ONCE, because he was drunk...", it makes me wonder if you're seeing the situation in a clear light. She didn't nip the guy because he was drunk. She nipped him because she bites. She's aggressive. It shouldn't matter if someone is drunk around her or not. And "Little nip on his finger taught him." Taught him what? He is not the one who needed the lesson here. You are.

I just see a thread of not taking responsibility throughout both of your posts here. And I honestly think that that's your first step. You blame the other dog, your sister, the drunk guy, when blame should not even be an issue. Responsibility should. When Cherokee does something, the first thing you need to do is think, "How did I allow that and how can I make sure it doesn't happen again"? NOT - My sister is an idiot and doesn't know about dogs. Do you see what I mean?

You say, "She's never ever injured another dog. One time she tore my aunt's dog's ear a little..." That's injuring another dog. My dogs play fight like CRAZY and never have they injured each other. And you go on to excuse it by saying, "that's a pretty common and non-serious result" I strongly disagree.

I'm not trying to lay blame, I'm trying to get you to realize the seriousness of the situation, because it sounds like you don't, to me. Maybe it's because you are used to living in this situation and have become somewhat desensitized to it, but I'm here to tell you that if my dog ever "nipped" someone or made another dog bleed, I would be mortified and make 100% sure that it never happened again.

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm attacking you. I'm not. I am just telling you what I think.  

One more thing: You put this thread in "General Discussion". It's telling to me that you put it here instead of in "Dealing with Aggression". Cherokee's issues are not General Behavior Issues, IMO.

Fouriscompany (may I call you 4), don't be surprised, but I agree completely with your posts.  I do sense a lack of responsibility and some denial about the seriousness of the situation.  I also agree that Cherokee needs more leadership.

To Chelsea, please take a proactive role in solving this situation.  Please stop with the blame game.  Sometime saying it is all my fault is a way to avoid changing.  Yes, you are young, but you have taken responsibility for Cherokee and she needs you to be mature both in regard to your relationship with her and your relationship with your sister.  I think getting into training classes would be a wonderful idea.  You will need a absolute no-questions-asked recall and leave-it (or NO) command.  Here is an idea, take your sister too-ask her to help you train Cherokee.  If both you and your sister can recall Cherokee or tell her leave it and she responds, your sister will not have to yell and scream and she will be more relaxed around Cherokee which will help the situation (it may also help your relationship with your sister).  Also when taking training classes, the advise/instructions will come from a trainer, not you being judgemental.  The final benefit of taking training classes is that it allows Cherokee to learn to relax in a setting with other dogs.

Just one final peice of advice of someone who is much older than you.  Asking for help may be one way to get your family members to realize you have changed.

FourIsCompany

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm attacking you. I'm not. I am just telling you what I think.  

I have to be honest here, and say that I agree with FIC 100%. It sounds like you are trying to make this situation seem less severe than it really was.

 A "nip" is a bite. Plain and simple. Whether it just left saliva, it bruised, or it caused him to go to the hospital, it's a bite. So your dog bit that person.
A torn ear is a bite. Not "tore the ear a little". A bite, and hard enough to draw blood. Yes, ears are a common area for injury to happen in aggression cases, but that's besides the point. It was a dog bite.
You said the dog slipped past you a number of times. Once is forgivable. Twice you start to question. But several times? Even though these things happened over a period of years, it never should have gotten past a second time. Putting a baby gate up (preferably two!) will prevent slipping out of the door. That problem is solved.

Human error is inescapable. I know this from experience, believe me I know it. Humans will always find a way to mess up, no matter how many times they say "I'll remember next time". You're tired, you thought somebody else shut the door, you thought you put the other dog in the room - no matter how OCD-like you are, human error will happen. You have to set your home up so that even in the event of human error (Oops, I left the door open) - there is a back-up measure in place to prevent anything from happening.

Nobody says these things to try to make you feel bad. I say these things because I've been there, and I know what you're feeling. The stress, the frustration, the anger. It's all normal to feel that way. But you have to take it, and apply it, and learn how to live with the dog you have now. Not the dog you wish you had, not the want you want it to be, but the dog that you have.

Gaci, my human-fearful girl (thank doG she's a flight dog and not a fight dog with people), once had an issue with other dogs. Rather, I would say she always has the issue, but through work the problem is no longer present. She used to get intolerant with dogs quite easily. This, combined with a resource guarding problem of the bed, caused some problems in the household. Her resource guarding was strange though. If another dog was on the bed already, it wasn't a problem. If they all went into the room together, it wasn't a problem. If Gaci was already in the room, though, and other dogs came in, that was the problem. And yes, in the end she did end up biting another dog. After that, management was in order. Because I knew her triggers, it was easy to prevent the problem from happening. Some ways I managed the problem:
- If she wanted to spend some one-on-one time with me, I would have her in by herself and shut the door.
- At bedtime I made sure the dogs went into the room together so that she wasn't already up there (I have indirectly taught a cue in which all the dogs that sleep in my room will break off from the others at bedtime cookie-time and wait in my room).
- In the morning, mom would sometimes let the dogs out before I got up. If that was the case, she would let the other dogs in my room first, and Gaci in last.
- If Gaci was already in the room, I would get out of bed, ask her to leave the room, and then the dogs could all come back in together.

As silly as some of those things seemed, such as asking Gaci to leave the room just so she could come back in again, they worked to prevent the problem. Once prevention was in place, I began working on the problem. Since it's a different type of problem, I won't get into the details of how we fixed it, but it has been a long time since she has bitten a dog, or shown any resource guarding. Her tolerance for other dogs (in specific situations, 95% of the time she loves other dogs, the other 5% she can't stand them in her space, that number is now down to about 1% or even 0.5%) is increasing, and I can read her like book to know if she is becoming intolerant of somebody in her face/space.

The point is, you do what you have to do to prevent the problem, no matter how silly, or no matter how much you think you will remember in the future, you make sure these things do not happen. And to remember that some of us have been there, and when I make note of the importance of management (and I have to be honest and say management must become better), it's not to harp on your or make your feel bad, it's to make you understand the gravity of the situation. And this is a serious situation, I think that because you have lived it for six years now you have become used to the issue, and dog aggression is an issue unfortunately you can never afford to simply get used to.

Nevermind. I can't do this anymore. Thanks for trying to help. I appreciate everyone who was nice and actually READS and COMPREHENDS what I've written.

Well, this is really unfortunate. You asked for help and many people pitched in to give you just that, in the form of ideas and support and they took the time to type out thoughts and look up things and provide some really good and practical solutions... I'm not sure how that's an attack. 

You said you were looking for advice. And that's what we gave. I know I, for one, wouldn't spend a bunch of time and effort thinking and talking about this just to attack you.

I hope you do something. For the sake of the dogs. Good luck.

chelsea_b

Deleted. Feel like I was just asking for people to attack me.

They are not attacks, sometimes you cant see the big picture and sometimes the big picture is not what you want to hear