Dog Walking - out front or behind?

glenmar

She firmly believes that her large breed dog will not be tired out from the walk unless she is rigid in where and how he walks.  Her dog lives in town, gets twice around the block, 2 X a day and is not allowed to run and play in the back yard,

THAT kind of person is exactly what's worng with the "proper" way to walk a dog.

I'm kind of jumping in and out of this thread, so this has probably already been mentioned but -

Normally when I leash walk Kobi, we are out for at least an hour. I use a 24' flex and he runs ahead, lags behind, sniffs, marks - whatever. Some dyas we cover a lot of ground other days he pokes along and we really don't walk all that far. Rarely is he tired out. However, on those days that I am pinched for time and I don't have an hour, I shorten up that flex and do a well paced (I'm old so it's not fast), focused and deliberate walk. No sniffs, marking etc. 1/2 hr basically wipes him out. So your friend may be doing the right type of walk for her circumstances. JMO.  

denise m

glenmar

She firmly believes that her large breed dog will not be tired out from the walk unless she is rigid in where and how he walks.  Her dog lives in town, gets twice around the block, 2 X a day and is not allowed to run and play in the back yard,

THAT kind of person is exactly what's worng with the "proper" way to walk a dog.

 

I'm kind of jumping in and out of this thread, so this has probably already been mentioned but -

Normally when I leash walk Kobi, we are out for at least an hour. I use a 24' flex and he runs ahead, lags behind, sniffs, marks - whatever. Some dyas we cover a lot of ground other days he pokes along and we really don't walk all that far. Rarely is he tired out. However, on those days that I am pinched for time and I don't have an hour, I shorten up that flex and do a well paced (I'm old so it's not fast), focused and deliberate walk. No sniffs, marking etc. 1/2 hr basically wipes him out. So your friend may be doing the right type of walk for her circumstances. JMO.  

There are some people who would argue that the 1/2 hour focused and deliberate walk will tire the dog out, but not because he's getting sufficient exercise - because he's anxious.  Or, perhaps because he is focused, as he might be while training (mental exercise tires dogs out, if you notice.)  Anxiety wipes a dog faster than anything else, IMO.  Those of you who are doing this type of walk should be well versed in your dogs' body language to be sure that sheer anxiety is not the reason for the tiredness.  It is a rare dog whose human can tire him out just on a walk, or even a light jog.  They have four legs, we have two...

glenmar

THAT kind of person is exactly what's worng with the "proper" way to walk a dog.

So... everyone that "properly" walks their dog is like that woman? Not making any allowances for the needs of the dog? There's no room for people walking their dogs at heel after taking them for a 2-hour romp in the country?

This thread has gone from ridiculous to downright silly. The assumptions people are making are just way overboard.

spiritdogs

There are some people who would argue that the 1/2 hour focused and deliberate walk will tire the dog out, but not because he's getting sufficient exercise - because he's anxious.  Or, perhaps because he is focused, as he might be while training (mental exercise tires dogs out, if you notice.) 

spiritdogs - what might be causing that anxiety?  And what kind of body language do you think flags it up for us?

here's that link from spence again -

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/dogwalk.htm

handy because it has lots of photos!  Could you look at the photos and tell us - in your opinion - do any of the dogs in any of those photos look anxious or unhappy?  and if so what is it about the body language that tells you that?

I don't think this thread is ridiculous at all.  I'm learning from it.  I find the notion that the dog will equate "being in front = leader" ridiculous.  In all honesty, I can't believe it still has a foothold in the imagination of today's caring and sensible dog lovers/owners.  Also, it's a mindset I don't like because I see it a lot in fellow dog owners (in real life) and frankly, I don't like their attitude towards their dogs.  It makes me uncomfortable.  It's possible that colours my posts here, but I try not to let it.  For the most part, the people I know are not the kind of nerds you find on a dog forum

Did you not read my entire post?  This gal walks her dog, 2 times per day.  This is for the purpose of him not crapping in her yard.  The go around a small block exactly two times.  The dog is not allowed to play in the fenced yard.  He does not get exercised.  Ever.  Aside from the days she decides to meet me for a walk, and then the poor dog is walked on a one foot traffic lead so he doesn't get any "bad" ideas.

So yeah, that sort of person certainly does give this sort of walk a bad name!

Cassidys Mom

espencer

Cassidys Mom

If you insisted on taking your wife for a walk every day whether she wanted to go or not, and took her on a route of your choosing and length that she wasn't interested in and had no input in choosing

 

Then i assume that when you take your dogs out for a walk they are the ones who decide where to go, for how long and when to return home and you dont have any vote in those decisions, talking about leaders and followers!!

 

 You know what they say about making assumptions...
 

With my Dexy, who passed away in 2004, I did let him chose the path, how long we would be gone and when we would go home!  Did he think he was the leader?  I don't really care.  He had a beautiful recall, I could call him off any animal, he would wait at roads until I said he could cross them.  He never had any issues that might be expected from a dog that considered himself "dominant" to his human.  Selli and Duff are getting there, in fact we got back to work a little late due to an extended walk.  I usually let Selli choose the way since she is older.  And by the way she has a beautiful recall and heal and no "dominance" issues. 

Like Spirit, I use walk time to let my dogs have their freedom.  They have to closely follow human rules for say 21 hours a day, I will give them three hours a day to do their own thing.

And, Carla, no, I'm NOT jumping to the conclusion that everyone who walks their dog as this gal does doesn't make room for the needs of the dog.  But so many are argueing that there is nothing wrong with walking this way, and in some cases, there most certainly is.

FourIsCompany

GoldenAC

If you think about it, the work most breeds of dogs were created to perform entails the dog being in front!

This is true. But we're not working our dogs when we're out for a leashed walk, are we?

Here I am talking about ideas of what is natural for dogs, or if walking ahead of humans make dogs think they are dominant.  Dog breeds were selectively bred to go ahead of their humans and work for them in that position.  I would argue that if there is anything we can consider the "natural" state of dogs, it would more likely be related to behaviors we have selectively bred into them over hundred of years.  And that most breeds were created to be obedient when working in front of the human.

And for labs in the field working beside their handler, they sit beside their humans before they begin their work which is retrieving the bird, where they work in front of and take direction from their handler.  If labs worked beside their handler, there would be no use to use them since the handler could pick up the bird by him or herself.

Glenda, Here's what I'm saying: There is nothing inherently wrong with walking a dog at heel on the walk. 

Sure, some people don't take care of their dogs or treat them right. But there's not a connection between a person walking their dog at heel and mistreating their dog. You say you know this one lady (and yes I read all of it) and you said "THAT kind of person is exactly what's wrong with the "proper" way to walk a dog." 

What? 

And so I ask again, if the dog gets exercise and has all its needs met, what's wrong with walking a dog at heel? Even for the entire walk? As long as the dog is getting everything it needs in life.

My dogs have 24/7 access to a large yard and the whole house. I take my dogs out in the fields for 30 minutes to an hour twice every day. I ALSO walk them on a leash at heel. If you saw me on the street, would you automatically assume that because my dog is at heel on our walk that I mistreat my dog or don't meet his needs? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying, just because of this one lady.

At least mudpuppy answered that she doesn't like to see it because they both look unhappy and she'd rather see a dog dragging its owner than a dog walking at heel.  

And Chuffy, the thread isn't ridiculous, but man! Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. People are so selective about what they read and respond to, it gets pretty frustrating to try to have a coherent discussion.

GoldenAC

Cassidys Mom

espencer

Cassidys Mom

If you insisted on taking your wife for a walk every day whether she wanted to go or not, and took her on a route of your choosing and length that she wasn't interested in and had no input in choosing

 

Then i assume that when you take your dogs out for a walk they are the ones who decide where to go, for how long and when to return home and you dont have any vote in those decisions, talking about leaders and followers!!

 

 You know what they say about making assumptions...
 

With my Dexy, who passed away in 2004, I did let him chose the path, how long we would be gone and when we would go home!  Did he think he was the leader?  I don't really care.  He had a beautiful recall, I could call him off any animal, he would wait at roads until I said he could cross them.  He never had any issues that might be expected from a dog that considered himself "dominant" to his human.  Selli and Duff are getting there, in fact we got back to work a little late due to an extended walk.  I usually let Selli choose the way since she is older.  And by the way she has a beautiful recall and heal and no "dominance" issues. 

Like Spirit, I use walk time to let my dogs have their freedom.  They have to closely follow human rules for say 21 hours a day, I will give them three hours a day to do their own thing.

Phew.  I thought I was on my own in my line of thinking there!

If there is such a thing as reincarnation, I think in my next life I would like to be a GR puppy and I'd like you to buy me and take me home please!  

FourIsCompany

And so I ask again, if the dog gets exercise and has all its needs met, what's wrong with walking a dog at heel? Even for the entire walk? As long as the dog is getting everything it needs in life.

OK, I'm not Glenda, but I think there's a difference between "walking a dog at heel" and dragging a dog on a choke chain.  Walking "at heel" implies the dog actually know the command heel, ie. you say "heel!" and the dog moves itself into position and remains there at attention until instructed otherwise. I'm a little behind on this thread so I'm not exactly sure of the example Glenda gave earlier, but I know one member gave an example of a German Shepherd basically being dragged along, choking on a choke chain because the owner wants him at "heel".  IMO, that is NOT walking a dog at heel, that's choking a dog and creating a recipe for leash reactive disaster!

I just walked both of my dogs for three miles and they were at heel the entire time.  Leashes were loose (I hold them both in the same hand, doubled over, held down at my side).  Since I have big dogs I basically speed walk so they are in a trot the entire time.  I agree that this is a fine way to walk a dog.  We are all focused and moving forward at a good clip, yet no one is tense or straining on the leads.

Maybe some of the disconnect has to do with where we all live?  I live in a city, 1 mile off of the busiest street in the state.  "Off-lead romps" just do not happen as part of my daily walk.  Yes, I bring my dogs to enclosed fields for off-lead running, but that's not what I'm referring to when I talk about our "walks."  Walks happen on city sidewalks where all dogs are required to be on leads no longer than 6'.  My main purpose for these walks is training and proofing their heels and loose leash walking as well as desensitizing them to busy/loud environments.  So for me,"off-lead romps" aren't what I think of as "walking" a dog.

I read the linked article. And it said that your dog must always walk in heel or behind because you in front makes the dog think of you as leader.

And some of us are going to disagree, even if we seem silly.

FourIsCompany

My dogs have 24/7 access to a large yard and the whole house. I take my dogs out in the fields for 30 minutes to an hour twice every day. I ALSO walk them on a leash at heel. If you saw me on the street, would you automatically assume that because my dog is at heel on our walk that I mistreat my dog or don't meet his needs? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying, just because of this one lady.

At least mudpuppy answered that she doesn't like to see it because they both look unhappy and she'd rather see a dog dragging its owner than a dog walking at heel.  

And Chuffy, the thread isn't ridiculous, but man! Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. People are so selective about what they read and respond to, it gets pretty frustrating to try to have a coherent discussion.

OK, I'm having a "Moment".... 

We seem to be viewing this walking business a different way.

Variously we view it as:

1. Physical exercise for the dog
2. Mental stimulation for the dog
3. Enjoyment, recreation for the dog 
4. Bonding for the dog and his owner
5. Demonstrating to the dog that you are the "leader".
6. Allowing the dog to express a natural behaviour (assuming a "follower" position and moving with "the pack";)
7. Allowing a dog to express natural behaviours as is safe and socially acceptable
   

OK, so lets go with walking a dog "beside or behind you", on lead: 

1 - Physical exercise - ineffective for high energy, high drive dogs

2 - Mental stimulation - somewhat effective

3. - Recreation - Very limited scope

4 - Bonding - Effective 

5 - Leadership - While I don't think that "in front = leader", it can help the human to feel confident and in control and that can have a positive effect

6 - Natural "following" behaviour - I don't think anything about this style of walking is natural at all, I don't think the theory behind makes sense, nor do I know of any evidence that supports it.  

7 - Natural behaviours - Limited scope

The only difference I can see in that and allowing more freedom on lead is that there is a little more scope for #3 and #7. There is also the potential for the human to feel less in control and for this to have an adverse effect.  Some dogs pay less attention when out front, but I really don't think this has anything to do with leadership.

The differences between lead walking and off lead walking are so vast as to be comparing apples and oranges, so I won't go there.  Feel free to pick it apart, I'm still sorting it all out in my own head! 

I take Bubblegum for a walk for exercise for us both and for her enjoyment.

I let her walk anyplace she wants to walk...as long as no one is around.   If I make her "heel" she walks with her head almost on my leg ( I guess from her show days ) which makes it about impossible for me to walk.   So I let her go...she gets ahead...then falls behind....and when she runs to catch up or go ahead...its more exercise for her.  If she could not enjoy the walk..I don't want to take her..

When someone walks by, a simple "wait" command makes her stop and wait for me to get to her side...when I hold her leash much closer until she can run again.   She is very good about that.

Nope, I don't make assumptions about people based on seeing them once, twice or even several times.  Although, in my mind I might think that neither one of them looks to be having a heck of a lot of fun....and to ME walks are for the dogs.  Heck, I can walk anytime I want to, any direction I choose to at any pace I select.  THEY don't get to go off on their own because they "need some time to think" or whatever.