The Training/Behavior "Chatter" Thread

houndlove

Would I use a system of teaching and learning based primarily on positive reinforcement and negative punishment with my child? YOU BET! Have I done so in my classrooms? Yep--in education it's known as "positive discipline".  See http://www.health.state.ok.us/program/mchecd/posdisc.html

The thing about a clicker or other marker is that it's particularly important when teaching a non-human animal because of the language barrier. With a human who speaks the same language as you, it's less necessary in most instances. But the foundations of clicker training are very applicable to teaching and learning with children.  An actual audible marker is also being used by coaches and teachers of physical activities: http://www.tagteach.com/ because of the complexity of the behaviors they are trying to teach, in a purely physical realm.

Sorry! I didn't read all the posts before posting, so didn't see you had already referred to this. *G*

FourIsCompany

Vinia

One reason why flooding is successful in cognitive-behavioural therapy with humans is the cognitive part of the therapy- a major part of the flooding procedure is getting the client to actively practise calming techniques (deep breathing, imagery etc)

 

I agree. It is successful in humans. But it is also successful in dogs, providing the fear isn't too overwhelming. So, yeah, humans can have coping techniques, but that doesn't mean that it's NOT successful in dogs.

I think you can GIVE the dog coping techniques in the same way a person can use calming techniques.  Lying down is a relaxed position for example, so you can ask them to take that position, a bit like houndlove does with Marlowe and the mat training.  You can also teach them: When you see this, do X.  Giving the dog something to DO helps to take their mind off it (as someone else said, not great at multi tasking!) And its like when you hear a fire alarm, you might panic and feel afraid.  But if you have been given clear instructions on what to do when you hear it and practised the drill, its not quite so scary.  Does that make sense?

Unfortunately, all these things take time, and if you take flooding is the plaster-off-quick option, which doesn't allow that much time.  Perhaps it would be helpful if we thought of these techniques as analogue rather than digital... so that it's never one or the other with any dog, but a delicate balance between the two, depending on the dog's own threshold, level of training and his ability to cope.  ??

FourIsCompany

I distinctly remember being told that dogs are not wolves. Now I'm supposed to recognize the similarities between dogs and people? It sounds to me as though the line between wolves and dogs is growing thicker by the page here and the line between dogs and people is getting pretty thin. If we're talking about holding down a dog (puppy pin), I am told "dogs are not wolves"! And if we're talking about flooding, I am told, "dogs are more like people"...

Are dogs more like people than like wolves? It depends, it seems, on our personal beliefs. Certainly not science. And personally, I'm far more inclined to make comparisons between dogs and wolves than I am between dogs and people. It seems the more scientific way to think...   

The scientifically-minded among us are sounding awfully unscientific, depending on the subject. If the subject is positive reinforcement, it's all science. If the subject is positive punishment, dogs, all of a sudden, are people, too!

It's not about whether or not dogs are more close to wolves, or farther away, or how close they are to humans. There is a very important thing to be learned, though, by being able to compare species. Dogs, wolves, and humans ARE all separate species. I don't think dogs are more like people than wolves, or more like wovles than people. I think dogs are very much like dogs, and deserve to be treated as such. But there is huge knowledge to be had, which can make the world a better place, by knowing the differences and similarities between species. For instance, mammals as a whole have a lot of the same physiology as people do. Rats especially are one of the closest physiologically to people (besides the fact they have no vomit reflex - there's a difference, as is the fact that they have litters), which is one reason they make such a good models for human diseases and research. Knowing the differences between, and similarities between, species, and discussing them, is highly educational. It's not about picking and choosing what you like, it's about recognizing where similarities can be observed, and where differences can also be observed.

So regardless of the species, animals are subject to the same laws of learning that people are. However, they don't experience the same levels of cognitive ability, therefore what's good for one species may not be good for another, or what's not good for one species just might be great for another. That's why we have these discussions, because it's not cut and dry, and it's not "depending on the subject", or "depending on beliefs", at least not for me, when discussing the differences between animals. There are certain, basic, fundamentals that all animals share. That's just how it is,. Just like there are certain fundamental differences that occur between all species - that's what makes them species after all, rather than all being the same species.

But the saying "we are more alike than we are different" really does apply well when it comes to discussing all (or most) mammals. And that is scientific.

FourIsCompany

Does a dog feel betrayal?

This hasn't been ignored, and as I said, I agree with Cassidysmom on this one.  Dogs can definately lose trust in their owner, but I don't know whether you equate that with feeling betrayal?  I also like corvus' idea on other threads about the piggy bank. The more trust you build up over time, the higher the balance.  And when you do something unpleasant (in the dogs eyes) you make a withdrawal. 

FourIsCompany

Does he feel it when his human forces him to undergo surgery, chemotherapy or other necessary procedures that result in him being fearful?

I don't think my dog even knew that I was responsible for his losing his marbles.  I don't think he connected that with me at all.  I wasn't there when the surgery took place, or any of the trappings that go with it.  My BF was there when the vet clipped his nails when he was younger, and he didn't trust the vet after that, nor did he trust the BF when at the vets.  When waiting in the waiting room he tried to get to me, probably believing I would not let harm come to him.  At other times, when he doesn't have someone he feels he can go to for reassurance, he just tries to pull back towards the door.  So yes, I do think that some procedures can cause a loss of trust, but I also think it can be context specific.  So, everything will be just fine at home, but the cracks will show next time you are at the surgery and he doesn't feel you will protect him.  ?? 

FourIsCompany

Can a dog discriminate between "necessary" and "unnecessary" fears?

FourIsCompany

How could "flooding" to alleviate a fear be determined as an unnecessary fear (by the dog), while taking a fearful dog (such as ron2's Shadow) to the vet be determined as a necessary fear (by the dog)?

I'm not sure.  In all honesty, I don't THINK so.  Perhaps.  Dogs are better at reading intent than we can guess, but I think it is foolish to over estimate them in that regard.  I certainly think the piggy bank analogy is relevant here.  If you have a healthy balance in there, perhaps it doesn;t matter.  With a very sensitive individual, you would certainly want to limit your withdrawals.  THEY might not be able to tell between nevessary and unnecessary, but you don't want to make hefty withdrawals when its unnecessary and then find when it really IS necessary you get, in doggy terms, an offensive beeping and **INSUFFICIENT FUNDS**

FourIsCompany

I distinctly remember being told that dogs are not wolves. Now I'm supposed to recognize the similarities between dogs and people? It sounds to me as though the line between wolves and dogs is growing thicker by the page here and the line between dogs and people is getting pretty thin. If we're talking about holding down a dog (puppy pin), I am told "dogs are not wolves"! And if we're talking about flooding, I am told, "dogs are more like people"...

This is so interesting for me.  I think that, in certain ways, dogs are very like wolves indeed.  But in other, fundamental ways, they have branched off in becoming their own species.  When using wolves as a comparison, it can get quite confusing as to which parts are relevant and which parts not.  So I find it easier to simply see the dog as a species on his own.  As for the "dogs are like people" thing... well, that's the thing about empathy isn't it?  Being able to look at another individual and think "You are like me" and therefore "feel" what he may be feeling.  And so yes, I think that comes to the fore when thinking about using punishment.  Always, when we use punishment, it should be done judiciously and with great compassion - empathy. 

Great discussions, everyone!

And since this is a chatter thread and I just saw this, I wanted to comment on it.  

mudpuppy

and, as is always my question, how do we know it worked? they never go back six months later and show us that in CM's absence the dog has been and remained "cured" of whatever.

I just saw the 18 month follow-up of Nunu, "the demon chihuahua." He's a dream dog!

Follow-Up 

Kim_MacMillan

But the saying "we are more alike than we are different" really does apply well when it comes to discussing all (or most) mammals. And that is scientific.

Goodness me.  Does someone agree with me?? Wonders will never cease!

I actually agree with that, too. As mammals, we have a lot of similarities. And I just agreed with Kim in another thread... Oh, dear, what's happening?!

FourIsCompany

mudpuppy

and, as is always my question, how do we know it worked? they never go back six months later and show us that in CM's absence the dog has been and remained "cured" of whatever.

 

I just saw the 18 month follow-up of Nunu, "the demon chihuahua." He's a dream dog!

Not to run any trainer through the mud here, but we honestly have to consider that a television show, regardless of which trainer is on it,  is not likely going to advertise those cases where the dogs got worse, or did not get better. So while the __-month rechecks are interesting, and for those dogs helped is great, it's something to keep in the back of your mind at all times, is that TV shows wouldn't gain viewers and maintain time slots if they looked back at their "failures". That goes for all of the shows, in which I'm sure all of the shows have situations where "failures" occurred when looking at it in the longrun - the methods worked for a while but did not last, the owner didn't do as was instructed, new behaviour issues arose and weren't dealt with, a health issues that caused the behavioural issue, the factors are very complex.

The reason I say this is because while I don't remember which ones specifically, there have been dogs who did not get better using the methods on DW, and there have been cases of dogs who developed more problems as a result, and who went on to other trainers and behaviourists to fix the current and new problems. I say this because I have spoken to people who have worked with some of these dogs (who mentiones specifically), and the proof is out there in the archives of some of the training lists - I just never wrote it down as I didn't see the need. There was also a new article where one of the owners of a dog that was on DW was bitten for trying what he told them to try. It seems it worked for CM at the time, but did not work for the owners, for whatever reason (I'm being ambiguous on purpose, so as not to be offensive as I don't want this to turn into a CM thread......please! It's interesting now!)

To be fair, like I said I'm sure there are failures that occur on all of these shows, so don't feel as though I'm pinpointing anybody, I just happened to know of ones on that show. But I'm sure it happens on all of them, for a variety of reasons. And if I do hear about it, I'd share them equally. And it is great to see the success stories, yes, regardless of whether or not we like the methods.

Chuffy

As for the "dogs are like people" thing... well, that's the thing about empathy isn't it?  Being able to look at another individual and think "You are like me" and therefore "feel" what he may be feeling.  And so yes, I think that comes to the fore when thinking about using punishment.  Always, when we use punishment, it should be done judiciously and with great compassion - empathy.

Patricia McConnell's book addresses this question in a fascinating way. While on one hand she cautions us not to anthropomorphize when it's not supported by science, she also believes that dogs must experience emotions, (although perhaps not in exactly the same way that we do) because of similar activity in brain waves and chemistry. Sometimes we go so far the other direction to ignore those similarities out of fear of assigning human emotions to dogs that can't be scientifically proven, when it makes more sense to treat them as if they do have feelings, like Chuffy's philosophy of using punishment judiciously and with compassion and empathy.

Anyone who finds this discussion interesting should really read this book! 

FourIsCompany

When you clicker train your dog, it's not inadvertent, though. It's very purposeful manipulation

Yer dern tootin it is, with a lot of success in changing behavior, as opposed to punishment which would be physical manipulation by means of applying unpleasant stimuli to get a dog to stop whatever it is doing.

Yes I could clicker train or positive motivation train a child, without holding their meals. It's called "clean your room and you can have some ice cream" which is in addition to their regular meals. Through all the punishment I received as a kid, withholding the regular meal was not one of them.

I do not withold or feed Shadow's meal to him for clicker training. Eating his regular meal is about meeting his basic need for food. BTW, he can eat his regular meal and an hour or so later, be ready to work for treats. And, when I give him bits of meat from my plate, it is for obedience and proper decorum.

Even if I did dole out the regular meal for obedience, how is that any different than working for dinner alone in the wild? Work is work. No one is concerned that a wolf or coyote may have to hunt for hours before finding food. They sometimes go days without a kill and will scavenge berries off of plants. Also, clicker training is not about withholding the treat, it is about marking the desired behavior in order to give a treat. And if a person finds that they have to hold out, then the goals are too long and the process needs to be diced up into smaller, more easily rewardable steps.

OTOH, for extinguishing undesired behavior, yes, you withhold affection or attention or the possibility of reward. No click, nothing, nada. In clicker training, a reward always follows a click. There is no time when a reward does not follow a click. Such an event would serve to undermine the process. So, when I click with Shadow, the notion that a reward would not follow the click does not exist. Ever. Later, I can fade and quit using the clicker and vary the rewards and vary when I give them, say every other sit or down (DRO), etc. That's because in differential reinforcement, one is not using the clicker and can vary the rewards, ala a slot machine. Keep playing because you will win. But a click is always and forever followed by a reward.

Admin speaking...

Scared ya, didn't I? LOL.  Some positive reinforcement for you all.....7 pages and lots of productive discussion...thank you for discussing things nicely, and debating points rather than people.  Keep going.

FourIsCompany

The scientifically-minded among us are sounding awfully unscientific, depending on the subject. If the subject is positive reinforcement, it's all science. If the subject is positive punishment, or anything you judge to be "negative", dogs, all of a sudden, are people, too!

Is it a bad thing? Certainly I disagree with this characterization of our opinions but then I asked myself, was this characterization meant to be a description of something wrong? Or merely illogical? That is, for some of us who prefer positive training and the use of scientific terminology to draw comparisons to humans is a matter of convenience but there are similarities and differences between all organisms. IMHO, dogs are not descended from wolves but they both come from common or similar canid ancestors. Robert K. Wayne's singular focus on mtDNA aside, the nDNA and much physical structure of the dog is closer to that of coyote. But any organism can be flooded and have various reactions.

Flooding might be necessary in some cases and there might have been several instances where a dog flooded itself right out of having a fear. I think of Xerxe's post about his dog getting in the middle of a stream and having a moment of panic. Ed didn't panic or give him inadvertant affection, he let him work out his own path, in order to join the other dogs. The infamous DW episode with the Great Dane involves flooding. Why? Because the dog's birthday was coming up and they just had to have his birthday at the school. Just had to. Couldn't wait. Couldn't plan a desensitization and be ready by then, couldn't wait until the following year, it had to be right now.

As for betrayal. Shadow didn't identify the neuter op with me. What freaked him out was having to stay in the kennel over night. He hates kennels with a purple passion. When I came to pick him up he looked, in my human, anthropromorphistic terms, dejected, depressed, whatever. What had he done to be left like this? Why must he end up in a kennel again, like he was in the pet store where he was bought? I brought him home and he laid around most of the day, looking tired with "sad eyes." That night, I made steak. When I gave him some, he knew he was "back home" and back to his old self. But he didn't necessarily feel betrayal. But any creature can be pushed too far. And fear has a way of biting you back, sometimes literally.

Shadow will not go in water. He will stand out in the rain to pee. We have walked in the rain. He will lay down in the frost or snow and relax. But he will not go in water deeper than a puddle. Should I dump in a swimming pool for his own good? How important is it for me to have him swim? I don't go duck hunting.

What if you were to hold a child, afraid of water, over a body of water and tell them to "get used to it"? And when they start squirming, you bind them so that they can't move. Add a few points and describe it as the child bucking your authority? How about if you did that with a dog? I've seen it done with a dog. It made me ill.

glenmar

I would like to comment on Annes snake analogy.  I am one of those people who can't deal with one on TV.  I've finally reached the point where I don't have to change the channel, I can just shut my eyes or look away.  For years seeing even a glimpse on TV cause dreadful nightmares.  Having some close encounters has been horrificly terrifying for me.  I can deal with knowing that they are in the yard, I even reached the point of being able to deal with them being in the garage....by not going INTO said garage until we got a few good hard freezes.

Once upon a time, a gal I worked with was doing a street fair with me and decided to "flood" me by bringing a boa to meet me.....so I could see how unscary snakes really are.  I took off like a shot and must have looked totally terrorized because the door of the CLOSED diner I beat on opened real fast and they let me in.  I babbled rather incoherently about snake...snake...snake and locked myself in the bathroom.  My  husband was the ONLY person who could convince me that it was safe to come out again.  And, honestly, I was prepared to stay in that bathroom indefinately to avoid having to even see that PET snake.  All that little encounter did was terrorize me MORE.

I will paste the same that i wrote to Chuffy on another thread and her fear about spiders regarding the flooding technique:

Psychologist Alice Clearman explains why flooding even in humans works so well:

"Flooding is all about reinforcement in the brain. Whenever we engage in an habitual behavior in response to something we fear, we reinforce that fear. If we are afraid of spiders and back away from them, we reinforce that fear. Imagine a great fear of spiders. You see one in your bedroom, you run out of there and get someone else to kill it, or spray pesticide in your room or call the pest control company. I have known one person who refused to sleep in her bedroom for 3 months after seeing a spider there!

The way it works is that they become more and more anxious as they approach the feared object or situation. In the case of spiders, if i'm afraid of them and i have to kill one, i become more and more afraid as i approach it. Maybe i have a shoe in my hand, poised to smash the creature. My heart is pounding, my pulse is racing, i'm almost hyperventilating, im terrified! i get closer and closer, sweating and i suddenly decide that i cant handle it! i turn away and run out of the room, calling the neighbor to come and kill the spider. The moment i run away how am i feeling? Relieved! My pulse slows and my breathing returns to normal. I wipe my brow with a shaking hand "whew that was close"

Look at what i did to my brain, i had increasing anxiety as i drew closer and closer to the spider. Then i decided i could not do it and i fled the scene  having an enormous sense of relief. That relief, that feeling, was a reward. I rewarded myself for fleeing from the spider, I have taught myself, quite literally my brain, that spiders are indeed very dangerous creatures, i know this because of the feeling of relief i had when i left. The result is that i actually increased my fear. I have made myself a little bit more afraid of spider every time i exit"

VERY IMPORTANT POINT: The difference between dogs an humans when it comes to phobias says Dr Clearman is that humans attach thought, imagination, memory and anticipation of their fears. Dogs do not do these things; they live in the moment, giving them a huge advantage over us in overcoming fears and phobias

Dr Clearman says that the treatment for spider phobias is to have the client having a spider on his skin until he is no longer afraid. The fearful person starts by talking to a therapist who can asses the degree of fear but the treatment is always the same, It can be done in short stints over a longer period of time or just in one session. Flooding has been used by psychologists for about 30 years. Dr Clearman explains that the mountains of research that have been done on it continue to prove that its very, very effective

When a dog overcomes his phobia himself they become self empowered, increasing their self esteem and affecting other areas of their lives as they feel stronger, more comfortable and happier

Remember, this is the opinion of a Psychologist, scientific point of view about flooding, not just any regular guy who just "assumes" what is going to happen
 

ron2

FourIsCompany

When you clicker train your dog, it's not inadvertent, though. It's very purposeful manipulation

Only copying Ron's quote here of 4IC because I realized that I wanted to mention something. About purposeful manipulation, isn't most of our teaching of dogs (and people!) done through purposeful manipulation? It's hard to think of many ways (other than extinction or ignoring - and even those could be considered purposeful) that are not purposeful means of manipulating behaviour, as without purpose, and some sort of manipulation, we really aren't changing dog's behaviour at all. *G* Whether it is a clicker, a "no", an alpha roll, a shock, a body block, a hug, a pat on the head, or restraint, it is all purposeful manipulation of behaviour. Even everyday cues - sit, down, wait/stay/okay are purposeful manipulations of behaviour, as you are asking the dog to change its behaviour (perform some behaviour) for a purpose.

To balance NuNu we had a woman here from the show, who's dog sadly DID NOT stay the way he left it. They were not lazy folks, were quite dog savvy, and did everything they possibly could. IMO in that instance...breed factored in a ton..which she kinda knew, too. Last thing I did was send her to a breed specific forum...I don't know if she ever did go there or not. I hope things are better now tho.

I do also know someone with a success story so like with anything...sometimes you succeed and other times you don't...such is life!