The Training/Behavior "Chatter" Thread

 C/T does not deny the use of the three other quadrants and it is not pure +R. C/T involves an amount of -P as well. And it also involves extinction, which is what happens when a behavior goes unreinforced, but also unpunished (ie, ignored).

 So, again, how do you potty train that is different than this? Please explain.
 

This past year I have invited a dozen foster dogs into my home.  Their history is unknown to me so I don't know if they were potty trained or not.  Without failure, each dog will pee in the house, mostly only once.  When that happens I say outside and dog is put outside with all the others.  Once the dog gets familar with the house layout, the other dog's habits, and my schedule....and this does not take very long.. there is no more accidents.  Now some fosters can not hold it in for a full day while I am at work.  They have an area in the kennel (a small swimming pool) to go.  The new dog follows what the established dogs are doing.

FourIsCompany

Chuffy

What does a dog learn from failing to pee outside?  Well, that indoors is also a viable place to go. 

 

This doesn't make sense to me. From failing to pee outside (and instead, peeing inside) he learns from me that peeing inside is the wrong thing to do, because I LET HIM KNOW. I say "No", pick him up immediately and take him outside to the proper place to pee. I don't sit there and watch him pee on the rug and ignore it and wait for him to pee outside so I can reward him. I work it from both angles.

I know with crate training and slowly increasing his "den" size, potty training can be accomplished without ANY punishment. But that's by working with his instinct, not by simply allowing him to succeed 100% of the time and ignoring any failure.

Sorry, Four, I missed this.

A dog does not HAVE to make that "mistake" in order to be successfully and completely house trained.  The fewer mistakes that happen, the faster and more reliably the dog is house trained, in my experience.

It is not the "letting him know it's wrong" that has the impact.  It's the interrupting and letting him know it's right when he finishes outside that is key.

I notice calliecritters on another thread mentioned moving the waste, taking the dog on lead past the site of the "crime" and saying, not there" and then taking them to where you have put it and telling them THAT'S where you want them to go - OUTSIDE.  There's nothing wrong with that (see again how the emphasis is on where the RIGHT place to potty is?) - but the dog would be trained just as well if not better if the accidents were prevented in the first place. 

No one is suggesting you should let the dog pee indoors and let him get on with it; there will be chance enough to reward him for going in the garden at some point.  You (general) need to be pro-active!  PREVENT the mistakes and set the dog up for success.  That last has been said several times.  Watching the dog widdle on your carpet hardly constitutes setting him up for success.  Interrupting it and taking him out does not consititute an essential part of training; it's just making the best of the human's error.

I'm not asking what the result is. I'm asking what you do, and why you think it works so well. And what would someone do who only has one dog and not a large group of residents and fosters that establishes via a lot of scent marking where the appropriate potty place is?

 

mudpuppy

the last two puppies I housetrained had ZERO accidents inside, and they housetrained much, much faster than other puppies that I had allowed, due to my own negligence, to potty inside.

I totally agree. I have done the same. Perhaps you don't NEED to tell dogs what is wrong, but I feel it's a more fair way of letting them know what I want and what I don't want. It's just more information.

mudpuppy

I don't believe it is possible to be a "balanced" trainer.

I'm not surprised.   Like it or not, +P is one of the quadrants of operant conditioning. I don't see how you can claim to use operand conditioning and be balanced, when you discount one quadrant (and maybe 2) entirely. Hild is a bit "harsher" than I would be about it, but I agree with him:

Real Training vs Operant Conditioning 

Those who would claim to subscribe to the OC learning theory but who only are willing to work with the "reward" side of the equation are in reality practitioners of a bandwagon variety of OC that might more properly be called "PROC" or Positive Reinforcement Operant Conditioning.  Where true OC offers a reasonable chance of success through balance, "PROC" is a very protracted and unrealistic method for attempting to train.  The results are mediocre at best and more often simply disappointing.  The motivation for "PROC" is not better training but a philosophy (sometimes pursued with almost religious zeal) of abolishing all painful life lessons.  It is indeed unfortunate that this almost narcissistic need (for a "warm and fuzzy," feel good above all else approach to life) gets packaged and marketed as "animal-friendly" or "more humane." It is a selfish approach designed to place the trainer's need to feel good above the learning needs of his student.

I know you think my dogs are shut down and victims of learned helplessness, but you're just wrong. My dogs try again and again to please me and to get it right. Being told that they got it wrong is just more information to help them get it right.  

I cannot keep up with this thread! LOL

houndlove

How do you train? What do you do? Pick a behavior, and say how you trained it.

I have said before that most behaviors where my dog takes a position (sit, down, etc) I used luring. Actually, with Jaia, I used the clicker. Most other things, I just talk to the dog. I use sounds, words, gestures and commands to give them the idea of what I want. I guide them. By communicating -- Yes, that's what I want, and No, that's not what I want -- they get it.  The reason I don't use clicker training is that I don't need my dog to turn his head to the left and put his paw over his nose (or find my car keys). I have no desire for my dog to do that. If it doesn't serve our every day interactions and needs, I don't care about it. Does that make sense?

Cassidys Mom

Yeah, we want our chance to pick apart YOUR training methods!

I know you said you were kidding, but I'd love to give you a chance to pick apart my methods. To get the dogs on the couch (for grooming) I simply call them over and pat the couch and tell them to jump up. When I'm done, I say "Okay!" and point to the floor and tell them "get down". They just do it. My gestures, energy and intention say all there is to know.

When they approached my plate at dinnertime, I said, "eh-eh" and they turned away, knowing that whatever they're doing is the wrong thing to do.

When I wanted them to wait at the open gate, I told them to sit and when I opened the gait, if they started to move, I said "no... wait". Several times I touched the scruff of the neck to get that "wait" message across. Once they got it, they got it. Now, they wait when I tell them.

What other behavior would you like to know about?  

houndlove

Well, you know talk about only being punished for being wrong and never shown what the right thing even is!

Where did you get this idea? Who does that? What makes you think we ONLY use punishment?

Check this out:

Jaia's First Scent Tracking Session 

Just because we do use punishment doesn't mean we use it exclusively! LOL  

houndlove

I'm doing it all wrong and harming my dogs, please, tell me guys, what should I be doing instead?

I don't think that's what's happening. I think those of us who do use punishment (sometimes) get told that we're wrong and we end up defending our positions. I couldn't care less how you train your dogs. I don't think it's wrong. I don't care. We just get told that WE are abusive, violent, have "shut down" dogs who have learned helplessness and so on... and so we're standing up and saying, "Hey, positive training isn't the only way (or even the best way) to train every dog."

I honestly don't think anyone is saying that you're wrong. We're just saying that yours in not the only right way to train. Real, balanced training works and we have happy, healthy, balanced dogs, too.

houndlove

So, again, how do you potty train that is different than this? Please explain.

Isn't saying "No" considered +P? Because when I have had puppies who start to go in the house while I'm watching, I say, "No"! (not yelling, but with a bit of urgency) to let them know that what they're doing is wrong.

Sorry I'm making so many posts, but I want to keep up.  

houndlove

I'm not asking what the result is. I'm asking what you do, and why you think it works so well. And what would someone do who only has one dog and not a large group of residents and fosters that establishes via a lot of scent marking where the appropriate potty place is?

It looks like I do nothing and the other dogs take care of matters.  This tells me a dog will figure it out for themselves, naturally and without human intervention.  Why subject the dog to human dominance by training when you know a dog will pee mostly where there is a strong scent of pee. 

Well, a dog having a couple of accidents in the house will quickly create a strong scent of pee in the wrong place, and not everyone has a large group of dogs in the house already to help things along. You do nothing and your dogs magically housetrain themselves. That is not the norm, if you go check out the housetraining and crate training forum.  

 Anyway, saying "No" isn't necessarily +P. Some dogs find a raised voice very aversive and scary and any word shouted at them would be a punishment (trying screaming "PICKLES!!!!" at a very sensitive dog and you'll see what I mean). Others couldn't care less in which case "no" is at best an attention-getter and at worst totally useless. It also depends on how you say it. I say "Noooo" or "nope" sometimes to the dogs, just as a way to initiate a communication. They don't really know what it means other than when I say it, it's usually followed by me telling them to do something different than what they're doing. I don't bark "NO!" because Conrad is quite sensitive and doing that just makes him roll over and pee himself and wonder what he did that was so horribly horribly wrong. Not productive. So I make noises like "nope" or "hey" or "ah ah" and the dogs look at me and then I tell them what I'd like them to do instead. When housetraining really any sudden noise would do to interrupt the pee process long enough to escort outside (though Marlowe's such a hard-headed dog that I learned quickly that that's not always going to work with him and once he starts, he does not stop until he's empty, bombs could be falling all around him and he'd keep it up until he was good and done). But a better idea than waiting for that to happen is to keep a consistent and frequent potty schedule and do all supervision stuff we always tell people to do. But if an accident happens and you catch the dog in the act, do something to get the dog's attention and curiosity, as that will usually shut the nozzle off for a second (unless you have my dog) and then you can escort outside quickly so he can finish the job in the right place. That's not a punishment, that's just an interruption or attention-getter, because there's no aversive involved and after the interruption without further direction from you, the dog would go right back to peeing on the carpet. It doesn't stop the behavior from happening in the future, it just stops it temporarily while the dog mentally shifts gears for a second, and you can use that second to introduce a better potty option.

I think with housetraining there is alot more classical conditioning than operant conditioning going on there anyway. Dogs develop habits and if you can set things up so the habit he develops is also the one you want him to develop, it will be much more pleasant for all involved. 

houndlove

Well, a dog having a couple of accidents in the house will quickly create a strong scent of pee in the wrong place, and not everyone has a large group of dogs in the house already to help things along. You do nothing and your dogs magically housetrain themselves. That is not the norm, if you go check out the housetraining and crate training forum.  

Given the number of dogs that come here to stay temporarily for a few months and they are a random selection of dogs, I think it may be the normal behavior of the dog.  It could be humans are impatient and want to rule the dog.  Dogs won't pee or poop in their den and my house is their den.  I satisfy their needs and their urges by knowing when to open the backdoor.  I gain their trust so they know the backdoor will open so they are kind enough to hold it in.   Why would I reward or punish a dog for doing something that comes natural. 

Call me crazy but when an animal is defecating all over my house, I tend to get a little impatient for that to stop.

Again you seem to be accusing people who's dogs don't magically behave with no training of "not meeting the needs of the dog". What, are we all chaining our doors and never opening them and that's why our dogs take more than a day to housetrain? When training, Marlowe was out on a schedule very very frequently and any time he even looked at the door, I trotted over and opened it for him.

According to you, if our dog counter surfs or garbage raids, we're clearly starving him or else he would never do that. If our dogs don't housetrain in a day, we're clearly barricading the door and never letting them outside. And they don't trust us. And if we give them a treat as a reward we're cruelly feeding their obsession with food. We're all abusing our dogs horribly. I'll be sure to give my dogs up to your rescue immediately, I am obviously an unfit owner.
 

Having fostered litters and having fostered dogs who have spent most of their lives living in cages and had that inhibition against soiling their dens broken, I'm afraid I can't agree with that.  If "wanting to rule the dog" means that I refuse to live in a pee soaked or poop filled environment, well, then, guilty as charged.  VIGILENCE is the key in housetraining, not impatience.  When I'm training a litter or an older dog, I'm not in a hurry. I'm very patient, but I'm also extremely consistent and very vigilent.  I don't give them a chance to fail because I am constantly WATCHING to be sure that they do go outside to potty.  Each and every time.

One of the complaints about Tyler was that he couldn't be housetrained.  He WAS housetrained when he left my home, but then, he didn't have to travel across a slippery floor to go outside in my home.  When he came home, he had a total of ONE accident in my house, and that was my fault.  He didn't want to be downstairs with the other dogs at that point, where the doggie door to the fenced yard was and I hadn't put up a tie out out front from him yet and had simply TAKEN him outside.  He squatted and started to potty and I did not scold or yell.  I simply asked if he had forgotten that we go OUTSIDE to go POTTY....and promptly took him out and praised him like crazy when he finished outside.  That was the ONLY time he had an accident.

Pottying in the proper place doesn't come naturally.  And I have to wonder if assuming that it does is in the best interest of the dog?

Do "you guys" use the clicker to potty train?

Because I think potty training is something set apart from training a dog to sit, stay, down, etc. I tried to say this earlier, but I guess I failed to get my point across. Potty training (how most of us tend to do it) is using the dog's instinct not to soil his den and growing his den. It's not really "training" in the same sense as training a dog to get a kleenex when you sneeze or take a towel in his mouth. Is it? Do you see it the same way?

I think using potty training to have this discussion is fruitless.