Peeing on the bed and dominance....

I've never seen a dog attempt to "claim" something by peeing on it. If someone told me the dog was peeing on a bed as someone/some dog attempted to "enroach" on it, I'd seriously consider "submissive peeing" as the cause.

anyone have any stories about dogs they think they've seen pee on a toy or other to "claim" it?  cause I don't.

mudpuppy

I've never seen a dog attempt to "claim" something by peeing on it. If someone told me the dog was peeing on a bed as someone/some dog attempted to "enroach" on it, I'd seriously consider "submissive peeing" as the cause.

anyone have any stories about dogs they think they've seen pee on a toy or other to "claim" it?  cause I don't.

I don't about claiming the toy but spoiling the fun for others maybe the intention.  During tug-o-war games Marvin the foster hound doesn't play the game but wants to take the toy and chew it in his corner.  Not every time, but when he leaves the tug toy, he just has to pee on it.  No other dog will use that toy for a tug game until the weather has does its cleaning.

He also has to pee on the female dogs when they are squatting to pee.

mudpuppy

I've never seen a dog attempt to "claim" something by peeing on it.

 

You've never seen a dog mark his territory? That's claiming something by peeing on it. What do toys have to do with peeing on the bed?

Just something else I found...

Mammalian Scent Marking
Mammals mark frequently in any situation where they are both intolerant of and dominant to other members of the same species. In other words, they mark when they are likely to attack another member of the same species, and are likely to win if they do attack. Such a situation occurs, as Hediger (13) pointed out, in connection with territoriality but it also occurs in other kinds of social systems.

my dogs mark the territory, yeah- the BOUNDARY of the territory. Nothing inside the boundary. Every morning and night they stroll the boundary and take turns marking it in ritual locations. These marks are no where near anywhere they sleep, indoors or out. Nor do they have anything to do with intra-pack dominance.

We know that dogs often pee as a submissive signal. How do we construct a logical progression from Fluffy peeing to indicate extreme submission to somehow Fluffy peeing on your bed means dominance? Wouldn't dogs find that terribly confusing-- Hey Rover, this bed smells like Fluffy pee. Do you think Fluffy is trying to dominant Mom or was Fluffy trying to signal her submission?  Who can tell.

mudpuppy

How do we construct a logical progression from Fluffy peeing to indicate extreme submission to somehow Fluffy peeing on your bed means dominance?

I wouldn't.

But if Fluffy was a fairly submissive dog and several unknown dogs came onto her property or into her house, she might want to communicate to them that, although she is too submissive to protect the house and property, she IS willing to protect her bed or den, as it is the last bastion of safety she feels she has. And she WILL defend it should these unknown dogs approach it and she probably would win. So Fluffy might mark her bed as a way of communicating, "You can have the house because I'm frightened of you and I won't defend the house, but you cannot have my bed because it is my last place of safety."

I'm not asking you to believe this, but when I decided to get a male dog, I read up on dogs scent-marking (using urine and scratching) because its something I could not deal with, and I've read this several places. Have you ever seen a dog scratching and pawing at its bed? They are scent marking it using the glands in their paws. (Smells like popcorn) If a dog wanted to send a stronger signal, they might just pee on it.

mudpuppy

Nor do they have anything to do with intra-pack dominance.

 

I wasn't talking about dogs of the same pack. But a new dog in the home MIGHT be considered an encroaching dog, NOT of the same pack.
 

I know of a situation where a dog( Australian Terrier) was allowed to sleep on the bed of a friend of mine.....her husband was sick for a longer period of time and had been transfered to an in home hospital bed....once her husband got better he started using his regular bed again.....long story short....dog lost bed sleeping privileges and the he started marking the bed....this went on for months.

FourIsCompany

it makes sense to leave a token marker - such as scent-laden urine that communicates the resident's willingness to protect this space if necessary

 

Interesting read, indeed. But not necessarily dominance, as in leader of the pack. Marking territory (kilroy was here), sure. Need to go in a place not previously proscribed against, sure. That's not to say that a leadership question might not be the issue, granted. The year we got Shadow, we were having Thanksgiving with the friend who's son's girfriend gave us Shadow. Duke, the JRT, Shadow's first bestest friend was there. DW had been paying a lot of attention to Duke. Shadow walked up behind DW in the kitchen, hiked a leg and peed on her. I think he was trying to mark over the scent of Duke. In one way, it was a good thing. He had bonded with us so much that he wanted any other dog, including his friend, to know that we were together. The cat will rub on us, not just to show affection but to also leave scent. But I don't think it was a case of Shadow trying to be dominant over us or even over Duke. And it only happened that one time.

 

I think this all comes down to the degree of pre-meditation and determination. With that rabbit of mine, she would be peeing on someone's bed or living space within minutes of being let out of the cage. And she would do it more than once in a space of a couple of hours. I interpreted her behaviour to mean she was pushing herself forward socially and trying to climb the social ladder by covering our scents with her own. Possibly, she was trying to extend her territory. From the perspective of a behavioural scientist, I could reason that an animal would avoid a place where another animal has urinated and thus the one that urinated there is free to start using it. That could also explain why the Aussie Terrier started marking an area he felt he had lost to someone else. He may have been trying to make it distasteful so it would become vacant again. However, in most cases I don't think that would be the case. The dog already sees the whole property as its territory. There's no point in marking one place in the middle of it. So I think you look at how determined the dog is to pee on the bed and go from there.

DPU, I don't think Marvin is anything to go by. From what I've heard of him, he's a little weird and incomprehensible sometimes.

When Maze was a puppy, she was a HIGHLY dominate dog towards me (the only other female in the house) and one day while I was puttering, she had hopped on to the bed, barked at me to get my attention then peed all over the bed. It had nothing to do with housetraining. She was completely trained by that point. But earlier in the day, we had a massive dominate fight that I had won so I feel she peed on my bed to state that she was in fact (in her mind) dominate over me.

I don't think in Kenya's case she was being dominant at least not with the info that was posted.  But, I have seen my friends lab who never has accidents poop on his daughters bed when she comes to visit.  It seems to me like he's sending a very clear message there.  Now, maybe he's just going in a place that isn't his normal living space.  But, why would he choose HER bed when there are other areas of the house that he doesn't use on a regular basis. 

Back to Kenya, is there anyway you could get her to communicate when she needs to go better?  I think just pooping on the bed or anywhere in the house because they need to go is a little much.  She should be letting you know in some way not just going like that. 

ron2

But not necessarily dominance, as in leader of the pack. Marking territory (kilroy was here), sure.

 

Exactly. I hope it's clear that I have said as much several times. I'm glad you read the paper. This is one [science-y] subject that I find fascinating.

willowchow

I don't think in Kenya's case she was being dominant at least not with the info that was posted. 

 

I agree. Correct me if I'm wrong, Liesje, but there's no question in your mind whether the accidents your dogs have had in the house were acts of dominance. You're positive they were not and you weren't asking about them. You were just asking as a general "why do people say this?" kinda thing.  

willowchow, the incident with your friend's lab sounds very clear, indeed, as do corvus' rascally rabbit and orange's Maze. They were all sending messages. Whether in an attempt to climb the social order, claim a position within the pack, claim a space as theirs or pronounce what they are willing to protect, it's clear that "I had to go potty" isn't the only thing an animal can mean when it eliminates on the prime sleeping spot in the house.

FourIsCompany

I agree. Correct me if I'm wrong, Liesje, but there's no question in your mind whether the accidents your dogs have had in the house were acts of dominance. You're positive they were not and you weren't asking about them. You were just asking as a general "why do people say this?" kinda thing. 

 

There's no question in my mind.  They were sick.  Coke had two accidents when he was sick.  He was being taken out several times per hour (and going every time).  He was sick and couldn't hold it for 2 hours apparently.  Same thing with Kenya.  She doesn't need to tell me when she has to go out because we go out on a schedule, but she got into the sardines and at them all.  To me, poo that is absolute liquid is a pretty clear indication that they are sick, not marking, not being dominant or submissive.  There's never been any pee in the house or accidents when they weren't sick.

My friend's rottweiler came over and peed twice in my house, not marking but actual pee (like, squatting and wizzing for 10 seconds straight).  We didn't attribute that to dominance or marking either, but to the fact that the dogs can't generalize well and Pru has only ever lived in a place with all wood floors.  Carpet that smells like 100 new things is basically the same thing as grass to her.  I really don't think she was marking, I think she was just peeing like she would if we were out in the yard. 

When Maze was a puppy, she was a HIGHLY dominate dog towards me (the only other female in the house) and one day while I was puttering, she had hopped on to the bed, barked at me to get my attention then peed all over the bed. It had nothing to do with housetraining. She was completely trained by that point. But earlier in the day, we had a massive dominate fight that I had won so I feel she peed on my bed to state that she was in fact (in her mind) dominate over me.

hmm. Interesting. I find it hard to believe a puppy was trying to be "dominant". But let's come up with a possible alternative:  what do people do when they are housebreaking puppies? puppy pees in the correct place, and then puppy gets praised and possibly treated. So you've had a bad day fighting with your puppy, and your puppy decides to demonstrate how good she is, and get some much-needed praise and attention. Ah ah! perfect. Here's nice absorbable surface, not the floor (we figured out the floor is no good for potty), it must be a potty place!  hey mom, look, I'm doing "good potty", please praise and reward me!

Liesje

There's no question in my mind.  They were sick.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I've had that kind of thing, too. Once a bobcat showed up in our front yard. I screamed with the blood-curdling force of a wild woman. Both pups (Cara and Mia) peed on the kitchen floor in stereo, even though they were completely housetrained. Mia has a hormone imbalance since her spay and she becomes incontinent sometimes and "dribbles" upon standing up. At times, this has been on her bed. Cara ate something putrid and I woke up to a kitchen full of evidence... And last night, in the dark, I fell right on top of Jaia and he dribbled on the floor. So, fear, illness and confusion can also make animals go inside.