Smile RWbeagles! Stopping behaviors.

Dog_ma

I don't have expectations for good behavior, so I don't get angry at a dog or kid who doesn't get it.  If I keep teaching, they will get it at some point.

  What a kind mom!

Dog_ma

I don't do a whole lot of true prevention when it comes to unwanted behaviors. I do a minimum of dog-proofing.  What I do is supervise

Supervise. Why didn't I think of that word? That's what I meant when I said I watch them. What you have described sounds very much like what I have done with my pups.

Ixas_girl

snownose

bad behavior = noise technique.....good behavior = good things,

 

This is a long thread, and I didn't see your description of the noise technique, could you repost it or point me towards it, please! I'm considering getting a cat for my dog, and it sounds like it would be helpful! 

Yes, no kidding....long thread...lol

I described that on page one I believe....

snownose

We started with the usual stuff, just letting the dog know what and what wasn't acceptable......he did well in that department, but had a fixation on my cats and the bunny was looking mighty good to him.

Enter metal drinking bowl.....each time he decided to chase the cat or tried jumping up so he could see the rabbit, I would take the metal bowl and bang my fingers against the back with an "AH AH" sharply said mind you. This noise wasn't his favorite noise, as a matter of fact he hated it...it would stop him dead in his tracks and after a while all it took was the " AH AH"........and after some weeks he lost interest in the cats and the cute bunny.

Ah, that's good! Thanks! 

I am also a firm believer in the Rolled Up Newspaper Method of dog training.  If the dog does something he shouldn't have done, I get a rolled up newspaper, take him to the scene of the crime and hit myself repeatedly over the head saying "I must watch him better in future, bad human!" etc.
  It's very effective.

yeah, that's my philosophy in a nutshell. If the dog did something I feel I need to correct or stop, I messed up. Big time. All misbehavior can be quietly and positively and pro-actively prevented.

so I was thinking more about why mildly aversive techniques, like the noise technique described above, spray bottles, shaker cans bother me when applied to puppies in particular. It's because they may, and I emphasize MAY, leave "baggage".  You're not thinking of possible downstream adverse events.  I for example want my dogs to ENJOY noise-- to enjoy a teeter banging, to enjoy thunderstorms and fireworks and guns, to be happy in noisy arenas-- so as puppies I try to condition them to associate loud noises = good stuff.  If I used a shaker can or a loud noise as my punishment, I would be doing the opposite. Possibly nothing would come of it later, but it might. Why risk it if there are other techniques that work?  same with spray bottles-- most of us want our dogs to hold still while being bathed, and some of us need to be able to spray down hot dogs with a hose. So it's kind of shooting yourself in the foot to teach the puppy that water = mom is mad. I teach dogs that water= fun stuff, and all of my dogs actively enjoy being sprayed with water. You'd have trouble punishing them with a spray bottle. And they are all a joy to be bathed.

Well, there's also the problem of you being the punisher, not whatever object it was that they were getting in to trouble with. I was just talking to a colleague today about the new leather sofa she just got and her cats. She was hoping the cats didn't claw the new leather sofa as they had the old fabric one. I cautioned that my parents' cats absolutely go to town with my dad's leather recliner, so I wouldn't' bet on it. She mentioned that maybe they'd have to dust off the spray bottle.  I said a better approach might be a scat mat, since with the spray bottle, you're the punisher but when you're not around the cats will see no problem with shredding the new sofa. If the sofa is the punisher, it doesn't matter if you're even in the same zip code. Best of course always to be proactive and then nothing needs to be the punisher, but if you've got a situation in media res, I think the best tactic is to make sure that whatever punisher is being applied is coming from something that is always there, not you who comes and goes (and who presumably you'd like the dog to always see as a good, happy, wonderful thing, not a thing that occasionally flips out and makes awful noises happen or brings down the Watery Hand of God upon them).

houndlove

Well, there's also the problem of you being the punisher, not whatever object it was that they were getting in to trouble with.

Ok, when one lives with a pack of dogs and the elder/ leader seems to correct the younger or the unruly, one will quickly realize it is part of dogs building a social structure that works.......

mudpuppy

so I was thinking more about why mildly aversive techniques, like the noise technique described above, spray bottles, shaker cans bother me when applied to puppies in particular. It's because they may, and I emphasize MAY, leave "baggage".  ... ...So it's kind of shooting yourself in the foot to teach the puppy that water = mom is mad. I teach dogs that water= fun stuff, and all of my dogs actively enjoy being sprayed with water.

I think it's more productive to refrain from emotionalizing. To consider that aversives like noise making or spray bottles leave scars implies a kind of  a neurotic component is over-anthropomorphizing, IMO. Furthermore, I don't believe that a dog would equate spray bottle water with swimming water ... I don't believe there's much reason to think a dog can recognize the concept of "water" that transmutes into such different forms.

houndlove

I said a better approach might be a scat mat, since with the spray bottle, you're the punisher but when you're not around the cats will see no problem with shredding the new sofa. If the sofa is the punisher, it doesn't matter if you're even in the same zip code.

This logic makes sense to me, for particular scenarios, like leaving tobasco sauce on the garbage can to discourage trash can diving. Not because the responsibility for rule setting is deflected away from the human, but because of the consistency factor houndlove mentions. It seems to me, however, that these tactics are related to the unpleasant "old school" idea of throwing chains, which I confess I've never done and don't know a lot about.

Ixas_girl

It seems to me, however, that these tactics are related to the unpleasant "old school" idea of throwing chains, which I confess I've never done and don't know a lot about.

Unusually for me, I think this one may be bang on topic.... I was told when my first dog was a pup that if he did something he shouldn't do, I should say "No" a firm clear voice.  He would not know what it meant and would probably carry right on.  I should throw SOMETHING (I was told keys) up in the air to land beside the dog.  He should not see them being thrown; it should be as if they fell out of the sky.  The noise tey make is usually enough to break through a dogs chain of thought and get his attention.  In that moment you can call him and he will come to you... he is supposed to learn (eventually) that No is like a warning... watch out, something is about to fall from the sky if you keep doing that.  And eventually he learns that doing X always earns a "No"/something falling from the sky and he stops doing it.  He also never associates the punishment with you so he is supposedly reliable when you are not around and he does not associate you with bad things.

Not sure if this is anything like the throwing chains that you are thinking of, but it sounds similar.  It wasn't really that effective TBH.  I mean Flaw #1 - most dogs are pretty intelligent and I wouldn't like to bet that they DON'T know you are the one throwing the stuff.  Especially if they test out doing X when you are not there and nothing happens.  I don't see why a recall is not enough.  I mean, we teach that ANYWAY.  So when the dog is about to do something - recall and praise/reward.  Why can't it be: Get to mum, soemthing great is about to happen!  Instead of:  Stop that or something dreadful will happen!  Especially if the "something dreadful" will be associated with you anyway.

 

snownose

houndlove

Well, there's also the problem of you being the punisher, not whatever object it was that they were getting in to trouble with.

 

Ok, when one lives with a pack of dogs and the elder/ leader seems to correct the younger or the unruly, one will quickly realize it is part of dogs building a social structure that works.......

 What does the elder correct for?  Does the younger still try to do it of the elder is not around?  Can you give an example? 

houndlove

I said a better approach might be a scat mat, since with the spray bottle, you're the punisher but when you're not around the cats will see no problem with shredding the new sofa. If the sofa is the punisher, it doesn't matter if you're even in the same zip code.

This is an important point. Not necessarily because I am the punisher, but simply because I'm not there to "observe" the behavior at all times. The scat-mat is. So, depending on the behavior I wish to stop, it's important to think ahead how I want to stop it. Do I want to stop the dogs making so much noise in the moment or do I want to stop them from digging in the flower bed?  Because unless I'm there every time they're tempted to dig in the flower bed, a correction by itself isn't going to do much good - without the follow up of redirection and praise for a new behavior.

To get the dogs to stop the loud fighting in the house so I can watch TV or hear myself think, I can and do use verbal correction and physical interference if necessary, just as Cara (my alpha dog) does. It stops the behavior for a one time deal. I don't mind if they're rowdy sometimes, but there are times I want quiet. So, those are the circumstances under which a calm verbal correction (by me) is useful. OR a water spray or other correction.

To get them to stop digging in the flower bed, a correction is also useful IF it's followed up by redirection (to their specially built sand box and some strategically-buried treats and toys) and praise for digging in the approved area. This area becomes much more rewarding for them, even when I'm not around. But even though I redirect and praise, I still show disapproval for the behavior I do not want because I think that makes a stronger impression on them and makes it clearer to them the behavior that is desired VS the behavior that is NOT desired.  

Chuffy

What does the elder correct for?  Does the younger still try to do it of the elder is not around?  Can you give an example? 

In my group, Cara corrects for the dogs "fighting", being too rowdy or for them getting too close to her when she's not in the mood. In other words, she ONLY corrects if the behavior directly affects her. But as I am the leader here, I feel it is my responsibility to correct for any behavior that affects ME, and that includes digging in the flower bed.

One of things that hunters do for classical condition is take their hunting dogs as puppies with them while hunting, primarily to get used to the sound of gunfire.

In spite of that, I think dogs can be sensitive to a certain sound or tone that just drives them batty. I can put up with the sound of a gunshot but fingernails on the chalkboard is a whole 'nother thing. So, I would think it's possible to have a gundog that calmly waits through the "pow!" of a scoped .243 but would stop whatever he is doing with someone banging on a pan. Then, again, it would be individual with each dog. As for gunshot, a response can be learned or trained. I've been shot at. I learned the proper response is to duck and cover.

If a dog has two braincells to rub together, they will figure out that things falling from the sky does in fact have something to do with you. They may not ever see the fact that the source of the object being thrown is you, but they'll figure out that it does have something to do with your presence. They will eventually try to do the same thing when you are not around and lo and behold, nothing falls from the sky. They try it again when you are around, and all of a sudden things are falling again. Clearly that has something to do with you being there. I'm not saying I'm a huge fan even of the scat mat or similar remote booby-trapping--I've never had to use anything like that and I won't say I never will but I seriously doubt I ever would. But for stopping a behavior through punishment, I'd absolutely choose an environmental punisher over anything that had anyting to do with me being in the same room or being the source of the punishment.   

Conrad does correct Marlowe for a few select things. Conrad doesn't like Marlowe to have any bones while Conrad is actively working on one in the same room. He hordes them, he's the old cranky one, he's bigger and stronger and he's also kind of a jerk. But when Conrad leaves the room and leaves the bones behind, all bets are off for Marlowe and those bones are now fair game. The correction comes from Conrad, and once Conrad is out of the picture, Marlowe goes for the bones. So if I wanted the dogs to, say, not touch the couch even when I was not home or not in the room, I wouldn't be taking a page out of Conrad's book because what Conrad does to correct Marlowe only applies to when Conrad is present. 

Chuffy

I don't see why a recall is not enough.  I mean, we teach that ANYWAY.  So when the dog is about to do something - recall and praise/reward.  Why can't it be: Get to mum, soemthing great is about to happen!  Instead of:  Stop that or something dreadful will happen!  Especially if the "something dreadful" will be associated with you anyway.

I don't know if you have brought rescues to your home and had cats at the same time....all I can tell you is that when the dog is fixated on chasing a cat ( remember dog has never been trained to leave cats alone) a recall won't do......especially, a Husky straight from the pound.

Ron,

the dogs that have been trained with noise aversion are not scared of general noises, even gunshots.....I live out in the boonies, it is hunting season, and my dogs are not affected by gunshot noises....now, if some person decided to walk through the woods banging on a metal drinking bowl, it might be different....lol