Smile RWbeagles! Stopping behaviors.

I  was surpised to read that my county's department of corrections uses TJA.  I am going to have contact and visit them.                                                                                                                  

DPU

Advising based on what you read is not the same as the advice given because of experience and being successful in influencing the behavior.

Excellent point. And it can also be difficult to listen to the voice of experience. And having plenty of experience, even that which is specifially germaine to a discussion, does not guarantee that the advice will be valued. Or accepted. Anyone can have an opinion, even if they lack a certain amount or type of experience or education. If the requirements to respond or render an opinion were based soley on experience, many of us could not respond.

DPU,  the head butts reminded me of a story from one of my chimpanzee behavior books.  In a particular zoo, the chimps weren't fed until all had come in from their outdoor enclosure. (They spent the night in doors). One day two younger chimps refused to come in, and goofed off outside for several hours.  When they finally came in, the other chimps gave them a bit of a thrashing. (Chimpanzees are big fans of P+ ) The two young ones never delayed again.

Obviously, a head butt is a mild form of P+, but social animals are naturally inclined to take feedback from group members. 

ron2

If the requirements to respond or render an opinion were based soley on experience, many of us could not respond.

For me, I mostly respond to "Stopping behaviors" issues only if I have the experience and have done some reading and studying.  It is the pretense of having both that is my objection.  Is it so hard to say "Not having experience with this problem but from my reading and understanding....".  For me and some of the problems that I have experienced rehabbing shelter dogs, so much time was wasted because of these false leads and propagating myths.  Even for some of the creditible authors, I take what they say and what eventually works always seems to be a modfication, a rejections, or just doing the opposite of their advice. At least these recommendations on stopping unwanted behavior helps me think or reinforce my adopted modfiied approach...especially in handling big issues.

DPU

For me, I mostly respond to "Stopping behaviors" issues only if I have the experience and have done some reading and studying

An excellent approach, may I say. May I also say that you are not the only one who follows that path. (I'm not referring to myself, though I can and do recommend things that have worked with me. But I do also read, value, and understand the experience and study others have gone through so that I can apply their description of methods in real-time, today, if necessary.)

ron2

An excellent approach, may I say. May I also say that you are not the only one who follows that path. (I'm not referring to myself, though I can and do recommend things that have worked with me. But I do also read, value, and understand the experience and study others have gone through so that I can apply their description of methods in real-time, today, if necessary.)

I agree with that, but one method doesn't work for all dogs, that's why I feel I need to point out how difficult certain dogs can be......and how  important it is to apply what works best and sometimes the fastest for the safety of handler and other animals.....

RE: safe/unsafe. Many people use aversives and corrections precisely because they are MORE safe. You, yourself use a shock collar to perfect your dogs' recall, I assume that’s because you consider the reliability of 100% recall to be more safe. I went to a trainer to have Ixa snake-proofed using a shock collar, because it’s the surest way to keep her safe from that harm.

I don't think you understand my point about "Safe": it has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the method, it's all about possible adverse events. Using a shock collar to snake-proof a dog is reported to be very effective; however, it is not a "safe" method because some dogs are going to have mental meltdowns or develop fears of the things other than snakes after going through the program.

I chose to use an ecollar for recalls because although it has a low potential for adverse events, it's also reported to be the most effective way to train a 100% recall. I figured getting hit by a car while chasing deer was more damaging to a dog than using negative reinforcement with an ecollar.

People frequently choose "unsafe" training methods that are also NOT highly effective, or are at best only equally effective as "safe" training methods.

mudpuppy

I don't think you understand my point about "Safe"

I don't know about that, but I definitely don't understand if you're making a distinction between using a shock collar to stop a dog from chasing a poisonous snake vs using a shock collar to train reliable recall.

Are you trying to say they present different percentages of risk and reward? Are you saying a dog might be mentally damaged by using the collar for snake aversion but not for recall? Are you saying that death by car accident is worse than death by snake bite, thus more deserving of making such an accommodation with shock collar training? Please clarify; that doesn't make any sense to me!

 I think the point is that neither use of the e-collar is safe in the sense that the dog could, in either case, have a mental meltdown.  But, mudpuppy was willing to take the risk of using an unsafe method because the consequences of either being bitten by a venomous snake, or being hit by a car were serious enough to make that method seem warranted, even with the inherent risk.  Whether you agree with the use of e-collars or not, I believe that was the reasoning.

We use the same philosophy when deciding at what age puppies should start class.  It is not "safe" to have them mixing with other dogs before they have been fully vaccinated, but the inherent risk of undersocialization, with the consequences that may occur as a result, makes many trainers, owners, and vets, disregard that slight risk, knowing that more puppies actually die as the result of behavior problems than die from Parvo.

Does that explanation help?