Smile RWbeagles! Stopping behaviors.

Ron, I know what works for me, that I have proof of and seen many times....as you know with some super difficult dogs.....Huskies are notorious cat killers......now, if someone could proof to me that other methods are pretty successful I wouldn't mind seeing that.

Liesje uses clicker and treat training very successfully....I think she mentioned she had a hard time stopping Coke,and realizes other methods have to be used.....

My bad, I wasn't replying directly to except in regards to rescues and I happen to click reply on your post. And I wasn't saying that you weren't successful. I was asking questions at large, it just seemed like I was buttonholing you. Sorry about that.

mudpuppy

FourIsCompany:

I agree. Stopping certain behaviors in puppyhood is why my dogs are so well-behaved now, I'm convinced. They learned at a young age that stuff that belongs to me is mine, what's on the table is mine and that they have to eat peacefully together and not get into each others' bowls, etc. I'd hate to think of what I'd be dealing with had I not stopped behaviors pro-actively while they were puppies. It would probably involve crates and a lot more management than I have to do now. Not to mention the general destruction that four 70+ lbs dogs could do.

 

 

Are you talking about waiting for the puppy to misbehave and then STOPPING him? or just realizing these potential misbehaviors could occur and preventing them? that's what we do- we prevent by pro-active training and management. And we don't use crates, and the house is peaceful and still standing. I would feel, well, weird, to sit around waiting for the puppy to do something bad so I could CORRECT the puppy. A very inelegant solution to dog training.

(emphasis added)

Those bold letters indicate how she "prevents by pro active training and managing" which is exactly what you do, everybody here prevents, if not it would be like not buying diapers for your baby and having to wash your sheets over and over again, i mean, who does that?

espencer

but this topic is not about preventing (which we all would rather to do instead of correcting) but how you stop behaviors when preventing failed, what is the best way for each of us to deal with it and avoid repetition

Espencer...from the orignal post...which states the topic of this thread...

How do you all stop unwanted behaviors?

Perhaps you were thinking of the other thread which did indeed specify NOT managing environment? This thread however...places no such limits and as such speaking of being proactive, managing envrionments is very much viable and on topic. It was a general question...addressed to any and all who wanted to reply...about what works for them or methods they use, up to and including prevention.

I'll put my Moderator's cap on for a sec....

Members are free to think anything as to the intent of another person's post, when that person posted it. However...members are not free, to direct the thread/posts others make from their viewpoint or understanding, based upon those assumptions.

Answer the post...participate, debate, discuss, give your thoughts...but everyone here should be aware that telling someone else what they should be posting or what is on topic...is not their job.

Wow.  I'm flattered that you think I'm that precise in my wording, Espencer, but alas I was asking a very general question.  Total prevention AND stopping unwanted behaviors that have begun are both valid responses.

I think conversations that get too limited are unproductive.  Hearing different philosophical approaches to the entire subject of "undesirable stuff dogs can do" is cool by me.  

Regardless of what the topic is, my point to mudpuppy is:

No, anybody here sits down just waiting for the dog to do something to correct him, 4 is company since her first post stated that she does prevention just as anybody else, so the assumption of her not preventing and just waiting to correct when it happens is totally inaccurate and a little bit naive

espencer

Regardless of what the topic is, my point to mudpuppy is:

No, anybody here sits down just waiting for the dog to do something to correct him, 4 is company since her first post stated that she does prevention just as anybody else, so the assumption of her not preventing and just waiting to correct when it happens is totally inaccurate and a little bit naive

To be fair, I know many dog owners that do wait around for something bad to happen before they do something about the behavior.  Not saying that this is anyone here, because I do not know anyone here well enough to know first hand how they raised their dogs--BUT I do have a number of friends that have done this very thing with their dogs.  I'm sure they do not do it on purpose, and I know I made similar mistakes when we got Sally (first dog ever) and then when we got Jack (first puppy ever). 

When we got Sally I figured that she was an adult dog and would just fit right into our living space--WRONG.  I actually have doubts that she ever lived in a house for much time before we got her.  At first I just let her have the run of the house and didn't adjust my living space and habits to prevent mistakes at all and just dealt with them as they came up, but after losing a lamp cord, the rubber ear pads off DH's glasses, a bottle of fish oil caplets, a bottle of facial scrub (yes, she actually ate the scrub), and a number of emery boards I decided that maybe prevention really was worth a pound of cure and started behaving accordingly.  Now Sally can be trusted pretty much anywhere in the house with pretty much anything.  We simply managed the environment at first and as she earned more freedom and simple "leave it" and/or "go lay down" and/or basic redirection did the trick.

We dealt with cat chasing in a similar manner.  If I thought she was pestering the cats she was told to "leave it" and if that did not work she was given a down/stay "time out," which always seemed to get her out of the cat chasing mood (and this was a dog that thought cat chasing was one of the best things in the world).  It got to where I could tell what she was thinking if she intended to chase a cat and would simply redirect her before she was even able to do it.  Although one of our cats still hates her guts, the other cat will lay on the bed with her and likes Sally to lick her.  The most she has bothered them recently was when Jack was on post-op crate rest and she would try to get the cats to play with her by puppy bowing and offering them toys (they were not amused).

I guess my point is that mudpuppy is not too far off when she talks about people waiting for their dogs to do something wrong before dealing with the issue (usually in the form of a correction), rather than preventing the problem in the first place.  It happens all the time. 

FourIsCompany

She's putting positive trainers in the "proactive" camp   and other trainers in the "reactive" camp. LOL

Good grief, I'm not putting anyone in camps!  That's just a private mantra I say to myself to remind myself to think ahead, be smarter than the dog, set the pup up for success, etc.  Perhaps I should have kept it private.... Yes, it is a generalisation in that rewarding the dog can also be seen as being a reaction.... but good grief, its just a short, snappy phrase that helps to keep ME on the road I want to be on.  I think you are a smart human Four, who knows darn well what I am driving at.  Or perhaps I should have kept my mantra private....

I am also a firm believer in the Rolled Up Newspaper Method of dog training.  If the dog does something he shouldn't have done, I get a rolled up newspaper, take him to the scene of the crime and hit myself repeatedly over the head saying "I must watch him better in future, bad human!" etc.
  It's very effective.

snownose

Huskies are notorious cat killers......now, if someone could proof to me

I meant to reply to this before and forgot. Shadow likes cats and plays with them. As a little puppy, he grew up around a tomcat and a JRT. So, if he played too hard or did the wrong thing, the kitten could get him because they were at the same level of strength. For lack of a better term, accidental socialization with environmental reward and punishment that eventually became classical. The reward is obvious, social inclusion in the form of continued play. The punishment would be a cat claw to the snout and, evidently, at the time, Shadow linked that punishment to the act of playing too hard and would stop it, at least for a bit. But that doesn't necessarily generalize, even with the environmental punishment. He kills squirrels by playing too hard with them. I find no punctures, no torn flesh or partially consumed carcass. Just a squished, dead squirrel.

So, let's say the dog is going after the cat and it doesn't look good. You can, provided you can catch him, administer a punishment to stop. You don't want to recall, then punish, because then you are punishing the recall. Chasing the cat and recall are two different behaviors. Actually, the recall is two behaviors together, recalling and listening to you. Now, the dog will stop the behavior if he sees the punishment as a punishment and links it to the act of chasing the cat. So, how would you punish a dog that can run 30 to 40 mph in - 70 F snow blizzard while pulling 4 times his own weight? That is, most physical punishments we could muster will not feel like a punishment. Unless, of course, you managed to introduce one effective punishment and linked it to a sound as a conditioned punisher. But that still leaves the question intact?

I am reminded of another member here who's dog can run out somewhere and come back with sticky pointy barbs hanging from his sac. The sharp pain of that is not deterring him from running wherever it is that he picks those up? Call me human but if I ran through something that put sticky needles in my business, I am not running through there and there's no one big enough to make me. Point being, some sharp physical pain is not enough to punish that dog. And so, how is a collar pop going to do anything? Unless, of course, the said dog identifies the pop as a punishment for chasing the cat or whatever and that would depend on how the dog perceives it.

A friend had a Great Pyrenees. She never scruff, finger-bit, or collar popped. GP's have an extra layer of skin and fur around the neck. This allows them to take a direct bite from a coyote while they stomp the coyote to bits in protection of the herd or flock. That is, they have been specifically bred to advance and defend regardless of attacks to the neck. A prong could have disastrous results with such a breed. What she did do is use a certain tone of voice while Lilli was still a puppy. A tone that was actually a punisher. Eventually, it was just a conditioned punisher. Plus classical conditioning. This is how the universe of Lilli is, there is no other. As well as rewards for commanded obedience and the reward of doing what she does best.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, just asking questions and to truly have us all think about punishment.

Well, Ron....there is an introduction period of dog and cats....I watch how this takes place, and act accordingly.....I am not going to let my cats be in a wide open space to where the dog can charge and build up a speed of 30 mph....lol....I do this in a close environment.

Based on that first meeting I will make a decision on how this needs to shape...see, my cats are are not scared of my dogs, so, naturally when there is a new dog they don't take off running which is a good thing....I let the dog sniff and when I see things getting a little uncomfortable I use my method......after a certain amount of time the dog realizes that certain behavior is unacceptable, but, also, that if he behaves the right way good things happen.....like praise and a good toy....and sometimes I will encourage all dogs to follow me outside for a good session of play....so see....bad behavior = noise technique.....good behavior = good things, including going outside and playing.......the last rescue lost his interest in cats pretty quickly, but still showed interest in my rabbit when he moved......once, he realized bunny was off limits, too.....we were able to call it a success....

Just wanted to add....during this acclimation period I do not collar pop or any of those other things you mentioned.....the noise usually keeps the dog in check, and after a while the simple"AH, AH" will do.....

snownose

Just wanted to add....during this acclimation period I do not collar pop or any of those other things you mentioned.....the noise usually keeps the dog in check, and after a while the simple"AH, AH" will do

Which sounds to me like a successfull use of either +P or -R and +R. -R in that once the dog learns to ignore the cat, that goshdarn clanging pot goes away.

Something else I meant to add is that yes, there are some dogs that might respond to a collar pop. But not every one of them. Fortunately, you have dogs that don't like certain sounds and they will do what it takes to avoid or turn off that irrtating sound. My dog may have had harsher (in my subjective analysis) lessons from the cat than yours get from you but it was effective in either case. In either case, the dog linked the punishment to the unwanted behavior and stopped it to avoid future unpleasantness.

But, I think we can mostly agree that there is not any style that doesn't use some punishment, + or -, and or some -R. But what is also important is understanding what the stimuli mean to the dog in question.

The big, wide world is full of punishment. And reward.

In your example, the learning did not end with just the punishment. You led to reward, which will always speed up a learning process.

So, I think that there is some agreement that punishment, both + and -, can stop a behavior. I think what appeals to some about -P is that the dog chooses to drop the unwanted behavior as it is not working and then chooses to obey or change behavior. Sometimes, in providing a strong reward path, the unwanted behavior can extinguish for lack of reward, an inherent -P.

And a "positive" trainer can advocate a noise aversion to stop a behavior, as long as the dog perceives it as environmental, rather than coming from the human, per se. Victoria Stillwell did it with a dog that liked to countersurf.

It would be interesting to find out, if it were ever possible, just how more sensitive dogs are to a sound than they are to physical punishments.

snownose

bad behavior = noise technique.....good behavior = good things,

This is a long thread, and I didn't see your description of the noise technique, could you repost it or point me towards it, please! I'm considering getting a cat for my dog, and it sounds like it would be helpful! 

I use "eh's" to communicate, and to be honest I don't think of them in OC terms.  Dogs are intelligent beings, and I'm communicating my feelings.  Dogs communicate to each other primarily through body language. We people can do that to an extent, but at some point we lack the expressive physiology. I fill in with language.  I do attempt to communicate first through body language, and it is amazing and delightful how much I can communicate to Sasha with looks and posture. Sasha has been a great teacher, because she is very sensitive to body language from people.  

I don't do a whole lot of true prevention when it comes to unwanted behaviors. I do a minimum of dog-proofing.  What I do is supervise, in the early days and months, and communicate gently what is out of bounds.  I don't get upset.  Patient, mild feedback done a million times gets through over time.  I taught my toddler to stay out the street the same way.  I don't have expectations for good behavior, so I don't get angry at a dog or kid who doesn't get it.  If I keep teaching, they will get it at some point.

Crates, x-pens, and leashes tied to my waist are my main tools.  I use redirection, usually in an attempt to meet the need the dog is showing through whatever behavior.  Ie, attempting to chew my couch would result in a gentle "eh" and being handed a dog bone.  Mucho praise for chewing the proper item. My internal thought process is "Oh I see dog needs to chew, let me show him the best way to meet that need." I am not joking that I use the same method with my daughter.  Jumping on some piece of furniture that isn't safe or proper? Hey, let's go jump on your bed!!! (Which is a mattress on the floor for this very reason).

This is a technique that requires a big investment of time.  You have to be with the dog so that undesirable behaviors don't get to happen beyond the first mouthing or whatever.  You have to be willing to redirect, over and over. But the result, in my experience, is more than worth it.  You get a dog who (a) doesn't destroy your things or make messes and (b) knows how to express his energy is non-problematic ways.  If Sasha gets excited by goings on in the house, she will run to her toy basket and pick something to chew or rip up. That is awesome, especially when little kids are around acting like cracked-out monkeys.