Smile RWbeagles! Stopping behaviors.

Oh I didn't mean to be thread police, carry on!

But we did have this same discussion previously and I wanted to reference that because there was good information in that thread as well.

Kim_MacMillan

The point here is, because of her special needs due to her small size, she lived her life almost extensively as being managed, and then rewarded for good behaviour.

Something has to be said for the stable pack that teaches, manages, disciplines, and rewards as part of natural dog behavior.  I had a *content removed*  puppy chi foster mix in my home and did not have to hardly make any accomodations because of her size.    Another success story using a different approach.

Chuffy

houndlove

Anyway, the clicker is only for teaching behaviors that you want to increase, not to eliminate ones you want to decrease. That's why clicker trainers use other methods to deal with eliminating unwanted behaviors (including but not limited to):

• classical conditioning
• negative punishment
• allowing the environment to positively punish
• managing to bring about the extinction of a self-rewarding behavior
• or in some cases it's quite practical to just teach an alternative incompatible behavior with a clicker and then substitute that new behavior for the bad old one

Or put the unwanted bhvr on cue and never cue....

I believe everyone will agree that consistency is key to stopping behavior.  So to stop two dogs while in a fight, which of the above works the best.  *content removed*  Marvin and Molson got into a fight and were really going at each other.  I took a broom and with the straw end I wholluped them getting both of them in the snout.  The fight stopped immediately and they never went at each other again. 

Added:  Rwbeagles, I was going to edit because of your moderator note but was writing this post while you were posting your message.

Well, there is a world of difference between your situation and this situation DPU.

1) Our dogs are terriers. Wily, active, dogs that play VERY hard, involving body slamming, bitey-face, chasing and tumbling. A terrier's play style is 100% different than the playstyle of Great Danes, which are of course known to be one of the most gentle breeds of dogs!
2) Your Chi mix there, in the picture described, is already more than six times the size that our Pap was when we brought her home. She fit into a coffee mug she was that small. She was 1.4 POUNDS. Stepping on her from a small dog could have been enough to kill her.

Our group of dogs (I don't like using the term pack here, as the humans are very much involved in the stability, and packs refer only to one species) is very stable - adding the Pap to our home showed us clearly how stable the familial unit really was, as it disrupted it temporarily with this fun new addition. It's not that the dogs weren't able to teach, manage, discipline, or reward as "natural dog behaviour". Our dogs are great teachers with one another, it constantly amazes me to observe my dogs teaching each other. However there is a huge difference here - regardless of the stability of the pack, the Schnauzers have a definite play style that was not conducive to just adding a 1.4 lb puppy into the mix. Like I said, simply getting stepped on would be enough to kill her. And with the way that Mini Schnauzers play, the risk of injury was great. It had nothing to do with aggression, the dogs all LOVED her and wanted to play with her.

Anybody who would just throw a dog that size, into an established group of animals (especially terriers - they are very much a group of their own!), especially ones all of the same breed (there does tend to be a difference between houses that contain several breeds of dogs and houses that consist basically all of one type) is simply irresponsible IMO. You're asking for something bad to happen.

The example you provide is comparing ants to elephants, truly. No amount of "stability" or "natural dog behaviour" would have made it any safer for Tikkle's entry. The point is, their play style IS natural dog behaviour, and I wouldn't ask them to suddenly stop playing in that manner due to a new arrival. So I respected THEIR play style, given their breed and natural tendencies, and managed Tikkle until she was big enough to take part in their activities.

They are completely different scenarios, and one can't even begin to be compared to the other.

rwbeagles

General request for all posting...

It's my hope that the discussion can continue without the need to "show up", or outdo one another, there are no prizes to be won as far as I can see.

Feelings or personal issues stemming from other threads should be addressed privately.

Moderator again...second request...

Mocking other posters is not acceptable. Tit for tat type discussion consisting solely of sarcasm and condescending tones will also not be tolerated from anyone posting. Be respectful and civil.

Self moderation...folks...discuss the issues and resist the urge to get personal with one another.

I totally disagree with this.

I have raised puppies as well as taking in rescues of various ages......noise aversion, body blocking, redirection all have worked for me .....that includes keeping dogs off furniture, unless invited or allowed, stopped cat chasing, no garbage raiding....that includes some very difficult dogs like Huskies that have an incredible prey drive.

Re-enforcement of the wrong behavior has always worried me about clicker and treat training to avoid or stop a bad behavior......and with good reason....lately, I have seen plenty of that on this forum.......

huh? did you read my post? my whole point of avoiding punishment with puppies was to avoid any accidental reinforcement of bad behavior. I've met A LOT of puppies who were taught by their owners that the most reliable way of getting attention from mom was to engage in all of the behaviors the owner didn't want the puppy to do. I understand your concern about clicker-training to stop behaviors; which is why I suggest the safest, most fool-proof way to raise a puppy is to a) manage the environment to reduce the odds of the puppy doing things you don't want him to do, particularly when you aren't around; b) reward things you LIKE the puppy to do, like not-get-on-the-couch or not-chew-the-chair; c) do pre-emptive training to prevent common doggy misbehaviors; d) and simply ignore any mis-behaviors, if safe to do so. If you ignore the minor misbehaviors, you aren't risking accidently reinforcing the behavior, and you are de facto applying "withdrawl of attention" which is likely to help STOP the behavior without risk.

Kim_MacMillan

Well, there is a world of difference between your situation and this situation DPU.

1) Our dogs are terriers. Wily, active, dogs that play VERY hard, involving body slamming, bitey-face, chasing and tumbling. A terrier's play style is 100% different than the playstyle of Great Danes, which are of course known to be one of the most gentle breeds of dogs!
2) Your Chi mix there, in the picture described, is already more than six times the size that our Pap was when we brought her home. She fit into a coffee mug she was that small. She was 1.4 POUNDS. Stepping on her from a small dog could have been enough to kill her.

Its all relative in my opinion.  I am not being defensive but I want to share a few more facts and also make a very important point.  The Harelquin Great Dane, name Drizzle pictured in a previous post, shared the same terrier attributes as you described.  Normally Danes are very gentle but not this one and because of her size, the behavior problems associated with this unique temperament were 10-20 fold of that of a terrier.  Drizzle also has killed small animals such as cats, possum, birds, frogs, and has even tangled with a racoon.  To stop the upteen unwanted behavior I could have used individual methods for each individual unwanted behavior.  What I did do was satisfy the dog's need  to release the extra energy.  She is very well trained and has gone through two levels of obedience and two levels of agility.  In her youth, we did unofficial agility competition and I have all the equipment at home.  With the dogs needs being satisfied and the unwanted behaviors magically disappearing, she is a very gentle Great Dane.  Look at the photo, the one where she is alone over the chi mix, and all will see her back leg raised so as not to harm the pup.

Also note in that picture there are 4 breeds represented, including a herder.

DPU

Its all relative in my opinion. 

Certainly, in your opinion. In my opinion, it's not relative at all. Breed traits are very important, as are a number of other factors that I won't get into discussing here, as there is simply no point I feel, it will go nowhere. I suppose we'll agree to disagree and say we both chose the management strategies we felt suitable and safe, with the dogs that we had in our homes, and different strategies were required due to different dogs within the home, different quantities of dogs within the home (14 vs ____), group structures (all one breed vs. different types of breeds - they do act differently due to experience and habits), and personalities, and in the end both dogs ended up living happy lives (or at least mine is, I would assume that your Chi mix has/is as well, with the story you are sharing, but I hate to assume things!). Regardless, it has nothing to do with the point I was making in terms of this post, in that there is definitely something to be said for management and prevention of unwanted behaviours. And that comment still stands, regardless of whatever happened to the original meaning of it getting lost into another abyss. 

As for photos, I will go on the basis that you are correct. since you were there and I was not. However, in terms of explaining pictures, for the future, it's very hard to see that her back leg is raised "so as not to harm the pup" as opposed to just happening to get a shot while she was in motion, if that makes sense.

Kim_MacMillan

DPU

Its all relative in my opinion. 

...(or at least mine is, I would assume that your Chi mix has/is as well, with the story you are sharing, but I hate to assume things!). Regardless, it has nothing to do with the point I was making in terms of this post, in that there is definitely something to be said for management and prevention of unwanted behaviours. And that comment still stands, regardless of whatever happened to the original meaning of it getting lost into another abyss. 

As for photos, I will go on the basis that you are correct. since you were there and I was not. However, in terms of explaining pictures, for the future, it's very hard to see that her back leg is raised "so as not to harm the pup" as opposed to just happening to get a shot while she was in motion, if that makes sense.

The Chi mix was a foster and it always seems to work out that fosters don't leave my home before they are ready and the home has to be better than mine.  Sometimes I wish I had the lives of these foster and would be taken care of so well.

I am not disagreeing with you and I am not locked into one approach, it depends on the dogs that are here.  I think I started my original posting as "Something needs to be said..." as a different approach which turned out to be successful for me and the dog.  Providing options are always good.  Contrasting is also good.  Good grief, I have a true SA hound, repeat a hound and that dog's safety from himself is paramount and the dog's environment is managed.  But I don't settle for only managing.  I am constantly working and trying different approaches so the dog eventually not only has free reign of my house but any house and then that is when the dog's adopter will come along.  And right now I am focusing on identifying the dog's needs and then fulfilling that need. 

With regards to the photo, ask any Great Dane owner how the dog goes in their lap.  I always say Great Danes have radar in their feet and I can say with confidence that not one has ever stepped on my toes.  Can't say that for the hound but that is my experience.  One of the reason why Drizzle in her youth was great at agility. 

snownose

, I would take the metal bowl and bang my fingers against the back with an "AH AH" sharply said mind you. This noise wasn't his favorite noise, as

If you'll pardon the pun, that sounds like an environmental punishment, rather than you wrestling him to the ground. And he defined it as a punishment by his changed behavior.

Kim_MacMillan

different quantities of dogs within the home (14 vs ____),

Not to be offensive, but you mention quantities.........this summer I was handling three GSDs, one Husky/Mal. mix, one Husky, one Husky/Chow mix......and you want to talk quantities........so six difficult breeds versus...........what....... *content removed* ?

Oops, I forgot two cats in my house interacting with my dogs.......Kim.....you have any cats living in your house?

Moderator reposting as this seems to have gotten lost.

It's my hope that the discussion can continue without the need to "show up", or outdo one another, there are no prizes to be won as far as I can see.

Mocking other posters is not acceptable. Tit for tat type discussion consisting solely of sarcasm and condescending tones will also not be tolerated from anyone posting. Be respectful and civil.

Address the OP, and their questions, further warnings, if needed, will come privately from Admin.