What makes YOU a positive trainer?

Chuffy

I am learning to drive.  I have learned FIRST HAND how corrections hinder learning ability. 

That's interesting, thanks for sharing that. I'm the opposite. I don't respond much to people who try to teach me by only praising the "good" and never criticizing the bad. The lack of criticism makes me suspicious, I either think the person is shining me on, or doesn't really know any more than I do. Similarly, my art students feel "ripped off" if they emerge from a review of their work with no criticism (heck, we even call these reviews "critique"!).

Oh, and good luck with the driving lessons!  

I don't know, I think I do need to be told if something wasn't quite right otherwise I might assume I'm doing OK and never change.  But I think I would do better if it was marked as wrong in a neutral way, rather than punished/corrected, despite the fact that my instructor is actually very patient and compassionate about it.  That could be translated in dog training into an NRM ("oops", "try again";), but even these can be very discouraging for some individuals.

Few people naturally respond well to criticism.  I think it is an effort for most people not to shut down or become defensive to some degree when criticised.  And we are humans and can rationalise and persuade ourselves that criticism is a good thing and therefore suppress that adverse reaction.  I don't believe dogs are equipped to do that.

My RIDING instructor does point out how I can improve my seat and control of the horse but she is also excellent and drawing attention to it when I am doing it right or exceptionally well.  Perhaps it is just because I like animals better than machines, but I am a better rider than driver.

Well, initially fear made me a positive trainer.  I didn't really have much knowledge about dog training or dog psychology or anything of the sort.  So, I didn't want to be physical with her out of fear.  I also had done some reading on the breed not responding well to that and that intensified my fear. 

But, as a gained more experience I realized that for the most part I got a better response with positive training.  I found most other methods to either not work at all or make her worse.  But, that's not to say that I would be closed to other methods in the future if something changed with this dog or for any of my future dogs.

Chuffy

Few people naturally respond well to criticism.  I think it is an effort for most people not to shut down or become defensive to some degree when criticised. 

Yeah, I hear that on a couple of dog discussion boards, and among some educators who studied educational theory over than 10 years ago. But I really don't hear that anywhere else!

Criticism/correction ("oh, this soup is a bit too sweet" to a human, and "eh-eh" to a dog) is really different from being callous or mean ("you stupid, your soup sucks" with an eye roll to a human, and "bad dog" with nose-in-pee rubbing to a dog).

The trick is in using criticism constructively ... or shall we say, .... positively!?  Yes, positive criticism!  It's hard to get right. Many of us are just not elegant enough to do it well! It's one of the hardest things I have to work at, when dealing with both the human and canine versions of animals!

Ixas_girl

Chuffy

Few people naturally respond well to criticism.  I think it is an effort for most people not to shut down or become defensive to some degree when criticised. 

 

Yeah, I hear that on a couple of dog discussion boards, and among some educators who studied educational theory over than 10 years ago. But I really don't hear that anywhere else!

Sorry, just thought I would clarify:  I haven't studied this fact or got it out of a book.  And I haven't heard it anywhere or seen it discussed anywhere but here (I'm not active in that many forums).  It's how I feel and how I have noticed others respond to criticism.  Generally speaking, people don't want opinions, judgements, advice or criticism and if they do they ask for it. 

Its like my brain is represented by a load of lights.  I had a driving lesson this morning and most of the lights were switched on.  As the lesson progressed and I was not doing so well, I got criticism and as a result I struggled even harder to correct or pre empt my own mistakes.  At one point it was almost like I could FEEL the lights blinking off and refusing to come back on again.  I started to struggle with stuff that I had done with ease for several lessons.  After the lesson I remembered seeing a "shut down" dog a while ago and I thought to myself - "so that's what a dog must feel like when....."

I have no intention of switching instructors.  This one is very patient and kind and understanding.  I am pretty sure she criticises in a way that you would call "positively".  The way she communicates with me is nowhere near the equivalent of rubbing a dog's nose in his mess.  Had she been me and I been a dog, I would have switched to something I could do, stopped the lesson and tried again later, working slower next time.  Due to time constraints, that was not possible.

for me, a positive trainer has EVERYTHING to do with having a positive attitude, visualizing what you wish to accomplish, and using whatever you use to successfully get to that point..... for me, a positive trainer doesn't mean one must use positive tools-of-the-trade only, rather, it has much more to do with tapping into one's positive energy and directing it in the same sort of quality.... it has noting to do with quantity or materialism. - but i do think that was the intent of the OPs definition.... the tools-of-the-trade such as food rewards, clickers, etc. can ya feel the positive intent encompasing the positive reward in this picture below?.... . . .

Chuffy

Its like my brain is represented by a load of lights.  I had a driving lesson this morning and most of the lights were switched on.  As the lesson progressed and I was not doing so well, I got criticism and as a result I struggled even harder to correct or pre empt my own mistakes.  At one point it was almost like I could FEEL the lights blinking off and refusing to come back on again.  I started to struggle with stuff that I had done with ease for several lessons. 

Ooh! Thanks for taking the time to describe that! Awesome! Your analogy is so graphic, I feel I can relate to what you describe!

Here's what you've got me thinking: by it's very nature, change is uncomfortable for sentient organisms. And it should be! When we recognize patterns, our lights are all on (to use your fabulous analogy!). When we encounter change, the pattern is disrupted, and we must process the unknown - which is threatening. It seems to me that one of the great differentiators between individuals, is how we each respond to such change, to entering the unknown.

It also seems to me that, as a culture, all benefit by having some of our members seek to enrich the patterns, and others who embrace and explore breaks in the patterns. In other words, we all benefit by having the lights kept on, but we equally benefit by having people who can find their way in the dark.

Perhaps this is where thinking about praise/criticism takes on more meaning ... some personalities embrace the unknown, and even seek it out. Perhaps those individuals thrive on criticism, are comfortable with the breakdown of patterns, enjoy using the "dark patches" of their own failures and limitations to slingshot them forward. And, perhaps others embrace the pattern, the working repetition and affirmation of "all lights on", and seek to maintain it. And ... perhaps a whole living culture benefits by having a rich combination of aptitudes.

Heehee ... that was pretty flowery. Chuffy, thanks for sending me on a mental romp!

In 2005, I was responsible for a project that was 64,000 sq ft of school and admin. A school has every modern thing known crammed into it. The project had a 5 month delay. I had half the crew I was supposed to have.

I was raised old school, where you received nothing but criticism and none of it in a positive way, heaping verbal abuse high and deep. All that did was make me mad, which shuts down the problem solving. With my guys ( the core 4) I never criticised a mistake. I would ignore it. A solution that wasn't as good as it could be was still good. And I would offer a way for them to think about a solution that was better. And when they did something right, I piled the praise on, deep and thick. And when they ran into a problem from something someone else did, I led away from the bickering and complaining by asking them what the solution would be. And let them run with it.

Once again, the job started out 5 months behind. And we finished on time. And actually, my time problems were shorter than that. I didn't have all four guys to start.

Everyone who owns a dog should play "the training game" where one person pretends to be the dog and the others provide various types of feedback. If the "trainers" are instructed to train using mostly  "punishment" , as in, provide plenty of  "no reward marker" feedback, you often get the trainee freezing up and refusing to move, storming out of the room in tears, etc.; very rarely do you ever actually see the person be successfully "trained" with a high ratio of "punishment" thrown into the feedback. And this just verbal punishment during a game! can you imagine how dogs feel when given physical punishment during real life? 

I notice a trend on this board that the people who use punishment use it for some dogs or some situations, its minimised and it does not make up the bulk of the training.  I think we all know that punishment based training or negative-only feedback is unpleasant and ineffective, I can't think of anyone here who uses this type of training.  So I don't know who your comments are aimed at or what purpose they serve?  You appear to be preaching to the choir here....

I know you said on th other thread "do your own research" but the truth is I don't want to see studies that show punishment is not as good as reinforcement.  I have not seen anything where SOME punishment was used with a third group of dogs and the results compared and that is what I would like to see.

OT - Chuffy, your sig is way too funny.

lostcoyote

for me, a positive trainer has EVERYTHING to do with having a positive attitude, visualizing what you wish to accomplish, and using whatever you use to successfully get to that point.....

Well, I think I understand how you mean this, but isn't this the same argument that e-collar trainers use to convince their prospective clients that all the dog feels is a "tingle"?  To be honest, I don't ever want my dog trained by someone who thinks that the end justifies the means - even if they continue to have a positive attitude and a bunch of visualizations. I want my dogs trained by someone willing to take the LIMA philosophy very seriously and pursue any and all avenues to realize it before going on to anything else.  I don't think that's an extremist view at all, since there is always time to revert to any other tools in the toolbox. 

Your photo looks very familiar - only Sioux drinks out of a cup that says "without trucks, America stops".  Java hound.  

Chuffy

I am with you there - the end does not justify the means and having a positive attitude does not absolve anyone of unfair treatment done to the dog in the name of training or teaching.  Who was that nut job lady who stopped her dog from digging holes by half drowning the dog in the holes that had been dug??  But she was oh-so-positive about it.  Does not make it OK.  I don't believe in "being cruel to be kind".  Being cruel is being cruel, however you dress it up in fancy words....  Now if you would just give me a hand down from this soap box....

Actually, I will give you a hand .  You seem to really get what I've been trying to say all along.  

And, I do understand where mudpuppy is coming from as well.  The "training game" is designed to give humans an understanding of what it's like to be the dog.  When you remove language from the equation, and must communicate with signals and body language, we are as handicapped as they are to understand what the other being wants from us.  And, the scenario that mudpuppy describes actually occurs, which is why some people have discontinued it as a way to make the point - clients were getting mad at how they were treated!  But, when you apply only the C/T for desired behavior or approximations, most people get very competitive about trying to make the "trainer" click, and be the first ones to win by doing the behavior that the trainer is trying to shape.  Try it sometime on some unsuspecting individuals... 

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contrary to popular belief (per your other post), body language is still a language... so i guess not all of the language has been eliminated, ehhh?