Spin-off: what makes a positive trainer a positive trainer?

spiritdogs

Whether they actually obeyed a command is up for debate IMO, even though they appeared to "stay".

When we let them out any other gate into the 4 fenced acres, they are eager to get out and once released, will charge out the gate and into the woods on their own. So, no. They wanted to run out this time, too, but they didn't.  

spiritdogs

As to the previous point about science versus spiritual, I don't think they are mutually exclusive. 

Neither do I.  

spiritdogs

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spiritdogs

Whether they actually obeyed a command is up for debate IMO, even though they appeared to "stay".  

Dogs are masters of discerning human intentions. They aren't computers that you have to program every response into. That is one if the fantastically wonderful things about dogs. They are better at reading human cues than great apes or young children.

The dogs stayed. Did they understand the word stay? The world will never know. But one way or another, intention was communicated and received. 

Funny how intention comes across so clearly.  

Dog_ma

Dogs are masters of discerning human intentions.

That's exactly the point. And I know my dogs. I know them better than someone on a discussion board knows them, regardless what breed they are.  

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Dog_ma

Dogs are masters of discerning human intentions. They aren't computers that you have to program every response into. That is one if the fantastically wonderful things about dogs. They are better at reading human cues than great apes or young children.

Well said! I agree!

I also wanted to thanks everyone for their contributions to this thread. It's had me thinking. And I want to comment about the idea that's come up about drive, what motivates the dog. We commonly look to prey/toy drive, food, attention, satisfaction of pack stability as the obvious motivators. 

I've had some experiences with Ixa that have made me look at other kinds of possibilities. I called Ixa into my life. I imagined a protector dog, and then she appeared. Using the language of various training and behavior ideologies, I've labeled her various things, like "fear aggressive", "unreliable", and "a project." But the reality is, she exhibits lots of protection behaviors. She is what I asked for, and this drives her.

Now, one could pooh-pooh this as magical thinking, but I say, if appreciating her role in my life helps me respect and nurture her qualities, helps me know how to care for her best, then let the primitivism shine on!  

FourIsCompany

I understand that you (and others) have a scientific mind and that this aspect of human/animal relations is what you're drawn to, what you relate to and what's important to you... and I think it's great. I wonder why it is, then, that people who have more spiritual inclinations as regards the human/animal realm are many times considered to be wrong, mistaken, prideful, doing what doesn't work, can't be bothered and all these negative conclusions.

(Yeah, I know it isn't blatantly said, but I'm not a dummy. I can read between these lines.)

And yeah, I'm not sure what this discussion is about any more other than the same old right/wrong dichotomy...  

See, I don't know why you think scientifically minded people don't care for spiritual relationships with animals. I might have thought my strong attachment and obvious obsession with my hare might have been considered something a little more than science at some point. I have related repeatedly how spiritual I believe this relationship is and why I want all my relationships with my animals to be like that. Houndlove has also told us from time to time how strong and not-quite-science her relationship with Marlowe is. It's a bit rough when on one hand you claim that scientifically-minded people judge you to be wrong because you're not into the science side of your relationship, and then fail to acknowledge that some scientifically-minded people actually consider science to be a legitimate path to a truly rewarding spiritual relationship with their animals. I think you've missed the point I was trying to make with that post. On the contrary, the spiritual side of my relationship with my animals is why I'm so driven to learn about them as an animal, a dog, and an individual.

Yes, I do think you can't be bothered. You as much said so. That's fine by me. I can't be bothered training my dog to a high level of obedience. Doesn't mean I don't care about training. I don't consider this a negative thing. It's just what interests people. I'm an artist and I'm always drawing, but often I can't be bothered depicting the detail of things like hands and feet. I'm still an artist even if I don't particularly enjoy drawing hands and feet and often can't be bothered with them.

The root of anything with living cells is evolution. That's not to say you can't learn anything by looking at anything else, just that if you want to strip it back to the bare essentials, you have a bunch of genes that evolution has tailored to do certain things. To get to the root of anything living, you look at why it is the way it is, and the answer to that is always evolution, somewhere along the line, it comes back to evolution. I'm a bit of a minimalist, which means I find supreme beauty in the bare essence of what something is. The more I can simplify it, the more beautiful I find it. The more complicated it started out, the more beautiful it is when I pare it down to the bare essentials.

See, I don't know why you think scientifically minded people don't care for spiritual relationships with animals. I might have thought my strong attachment and obvious obsession with my hare might have been considered something a little more than science at some point. I have related repeatedly how spiritual I believe this relationship is and why I want all my relationships with my animals to be like that. Houndlove has also told us from time to time how strong and not-quite-science her relationship with Marlowe is. It's a bit rough when on one hand you claim that scientifically-minded people judge you to be wrong because you're not into the science side of your relationship, and then fail to acknowledge that some scientifically-minded people actually consider science to be a legitimate path to a truly rewarding spiritual relationship with their animals.

corvus, you have stated this point very eloquently.  I am satisfied that my relationship with my dogs is much more spiritual because we have found a way to communicate on the so-called scientific plane as well as in other ways.  I think it only enhances the spiritual aspect of our relationship, since we are not so bogged down in a language barrier when I am working to understand the nuances of canine body language and the dogs are trying to learn English as a second language. 

I think the dogs stayed because they had a job to do.

A Sibe, OTOH, might bolt through the gate because his or her job is run 20 miles that way.

corvus

See, I don't know why you think scientifically minded people don't care for spiritual relationships with animals.

I don't think that.   And notice - I haven't said that nor have I said that they "just can't be bothered" with the spiritual. I just think we each have our priorities. Just as I do consider the scientific (it's just not AS important to me as the spiritual) I believe that others consider the spiritual (it's just not AS important to them as the scientific). It's just a matter of preference and priorities based on our belief systems.

corvus

Yes, I do think you can't be bothered. You as much said so.

Where did I say this?

corvus

The root of anything with living cells is evolution.

In physical terms, I'm sure that's true. However, I believe the essence of a person (or a dog or other animal) as the spirit or soul that is in possession of a physical body and a mind... NOT as a physical body in possession of a spirit and a mind... I see their very essence, not as the physical form we see before us, but as the spirit that lives within and "drives" that form. So, to me, the root of the person or animal resides not in cells or any physical construct, but in the essence of the being. I believe it is the intelligence that drives evolution that is a more basic part of a being. (Think quantum -- ooh, sounds science-y) To me, the science comes from that, not the other way 'round.

I'm simply trying to show that whether a person leans more toward the spiritual or more toward the scientific, and whatever reasons persuade them to do so, we're all doing the right thing, because it's all for the good of our relationships with our animals. I fully believe in the scientific side of things. I think it's vital to a fuller understanding of the WHOLE animal... And once again, with a little discussion, I'm seeing that we are more alike than we are different.

ron2

I think the dogs stayed because they had a job to do.

I'm finding this turn in the conversation interesting (what is this thread about again? ) because I actually find the same kind of misunderstanding about where I'm coming from in other areas of my life, because I am an atheist. And I'm what's known as a "strong atheist" partly because I was raised by atheist parents and don't have to reconcile any previous beliefs that gave me comfort with my current non-belief. So, I don't believe in a soul, or a spirit, or anything like that. I've found that can really throw a lot of people for a loop and their assumptions are often that my world is a very cold, sterile, joyless place and that my relationships are shallow and that I am therefore selfish (and many also assume that I must be filled with anger or rage for some reason--that one I never quite got)*. But what gives my world meaning is just different from what gives a theist or a spiritualist's world it's meaning.

I see true beauty in the cells. People say "just the cells" or "just the physical body" but hold on there! Just?  I am in continual awe of the way that cells come together and differentiate and function and produce these complex chemicals that all function together to create sentience, and sentience of such a profound and differentiated nature...it just floors me. It humbles me. I love living with non-human animals because they constantly remind me of the incredible diversity and complexity and wonder of all life. And that I as one species can have such a deep level of understanding and such a complex relationship with animals of another species? It amazes and inspires me. 

Science studies all facets of existence and I don't believe things that can't at least in theory be proven through scientific means. "Science" of course is really more a verb than a noun--it's the process through which we can learn more about the universe and everything in it, it's not a set of facts or even theories. I come up against this all the time in my work: I'm a researcher on a project to create a better way to teach kids one particular scientific skill (making controlled experiments) and the first road block I always come up against with the kids I work with is that they think that "science" means "facts" and that when I'm asking them about science, I'm asking them to come up with some kind of factual statement. And those factual statements actually directly interfere with our procedural task and run contrary to it and I have a number of little speeches that I give to try to break the kids out of that mode of thinking. It's incredibly difficult though, it's so entrenched in them by the time they're in 5th or 6th grade. One thing I do love about living with dogs is that I am constantly having to think scientifically, in the "verb" sense of the term. I am always trying to discover things about them, why they do this or that, how we can communicate better, what they might be thinking or feeling. And to do those things, I've found I have to really sharpen my science skills and have even done a few controlled experiments to try to come up with some theories (incidentally, one of the sets of problems I give kids in my work is one I wrote having to do with a little girl trying to figure out why her dog sometimes won't come when she calls).

*Maybe these folks watch too much House (though I am personally of the opinion that there's no such thing as "too much House";)?  Though actually as atheists my husband and I both love that show because we understand that he's a *** who happens to be atheist (and he says things out loud that I think to myself all the time) but maybe some people who don't know a lot of atheists may get the impression that being an atheist makes you a ***. 

 
Also: he makes me weak in the knees in the very very best possible way.   Hang on, let me pick my tongue up off the floor and we can continue on with our previously scheduled discussion about.....dogs, was it?

I don't believe in god either. But I do believe that mental formations (thoughts, imagination, fantasy, visions) provide valuable information, and that more of the cosmos is unknown rather than known. We all pick "stories" to give ourselves comfort and a feeling of "knowing." Some of the stories include: science, social theories, spirituality, psychology, philosophy, mathematics, mythologies, etc.

I think the point is that we are all entitled to draw from our own stories, and to share them. What's tiresome, unconstructive, and makes people defensive, is being told their story is unacceptable. What's the point? Fighting battles in the name of peace is a risky endeavor, at best.

There have been many versions of what a positive trainer is, in this thread. As far as I'm concerned, they're all correct. Even the ones that don't fit into my story, my version of how the world works. Even the ones I find distasteful.

houndlove

Also: he makes me weak in the knees in the very very best possible way.   Hang on, let me pick my tongue up off the floor and we can continue on with our previously scheduled discussion about.....dogs, was it?

To bleep with dogs, let's talk about the hotness that is Dr. House. I'm with you 100%.  

Dog_ma

To bleep with dogs, let's talk about the hotness that is Dr. House. I'm with you 100%.  

Pssst.... http://forum.dog.com/forums/p/66694/520427.aspx#520427 

there comes a time when intellect meets heart, or rather, when they merge and harmonize within the being

ponder whether this one has any merit:

spirit = energy

(we attach the labels)