Spin-off: what makes a positive trainer a positive trainer?

The toughest part is patience. Unlike punishment and pain the results may take a bit longer.

You said a mouthful there.    But, even patience doesn't do any good if someone has a mindset that says this can't possibly work without the +P quadrant.  More often than not, it can, and does.  I just wish people would give it more study, and more of a real college try before resorting to the "chokes, prongs, and rolled up paper".

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spiritdogs

The toughest part is patience. Unlike punishment and pain the results may take a bit longer.

You said a mouthful there.    But, even patience doesn't do any good if someone has a mindset that says this can't possibly work without the +P quadrant.  More often than not, it can, and does.  I just wish people would give it more study, and more of a real college try before resorting to the "chokes, prongs, and rolled up paper".

 

I don't agree with the assumption that those who use P+ lack patience or a belief in positive training.  I just wish people would be more understanding, and willing to listen to individual experiences rather than automatically dismissing them.  

P+ was a last resort for us, and a very successful one. Its use was limited, and meets the requirements for effective punishment as described in positive training books like Culture Clash.

I never intended to use P+, so I certainly can't be described as someone who did not believe other methods wouldn't work. I believed. I studied.  I  worked my tush off, daily. We got pretty far that way, but in the end judicious use of P+ gave us another year and a half with Ivan.  Sorry, I've seen it and lived it and I know better than to pooh-pooh P+ entirely.

Can't we stop this game? Of second guessing and indirectly putting each other down? Can we disagree respectfully? (I mean all of us at idog when I say we).  It doesn't help owners and it doesn't help dogs when we set up forts and throw snowballs.

spiritdogs

The toughest part is patience. Unlike punishment and pain the results may take a bit longer.

You said a mouthful there.    But, even patience doesn't do any good if someone has a mindset that says this can't possibly work without the +P quadrant.  More often than not, it can, and does.  I just wish people would give it more study, and more of a real college try before resorting to the "chokes, prongs, and rolled up paper".

 

Y'see this is part of what bothers me.  Who is this talking about?  People in general?  People here?  WHO here uses "chokes, prongs and rolled up paper"??  Its assumptions that divide us and that SOUNDS like an assumption made about people here.  Would you make -ve assumptions about a dog you\were working with?  Would you\draw attention to what a dog did that you didnt like or would you focus on the good stuff?  I observed on the other thread how people respond to criticism, how i felt my brain switching off when i was on the receiving end of a lot of criticism.  I now sympathise with canine students a whole lot more... but I am also trying to think about how others might be responding to ME when *I* criticise.

Now, MY ideal of a positive trainer is one who teaches using the kindest possible methods - regardless of the species of the student and regardless of whether the teaching is formal or just in the course of interaction, or even unintentional. 

With a dog, every time you interact you're teaching right?  Does that not also apply to human interaction?  With a dog, every time you interact, he's teaching YOU as well, isn't he?  Isn't it the same with people?  Can't we operate here with only one assumption - and that being that everyone here has something to teach us?  People who think of themselves as "as positive as possible" offer this courtesy and compassion to their dog... so why de we offer less to a fellow human beings...?

Dog_ma

spiritdogs

The toughest part is patience. Unlike punishment and pain the results may take a bit longer.

You said a mouthful there.    But, even patience doesn't do any good if someone has a mindset that says this can't possibly work without the +P quadrant.  More often than not, it can, and does.  I just wish people would give it more study, and more of a real college try before resorting to the "chokes, prongs, and rolled up paper".

 

 

I don't agree with the assumption that those who use P+ lack patience or a belief in positive training.  I just wish people would be more understanding, and willing to listen to individual experiences rather than automatically dismissing them.  

P+ was a last resort for us, and a very successful one. Its use was limited, and meets the requirements for effective punishment as described in positive training books like Culture Clash.

I never intended to use P+, so I certainly can't be described as someone who did not believe other methods wouldn't work. I believed. I studied.  I  worked my tush off, daily. We got pretty far that way, but in the end judicious use of P+ gave us another year and a half with Ivan.  Sorry, I've seen it and lived it and I know better than to pooh-pooh P+ entirely.

Can't we stop this game? Of second guessing and indirectly putting each other down? Can we disagree respectfully? (I mean all of us at idog when I say we).  It doesn't help owners and it doesn't help dogs when we set up forts and throw snowballs.

No one was putting anyone down, just making the case that, many times it just the lack of proper application that makes the method ineffective.  I don't think that I've done anything but disagree respectfully.  I haven't said that anyone is stupid, doesn't love their dog, or hasn't been interested in their own dog's welfare.  What I pretty much have said, all along on this forum, is that one should use positive methods preferentially, and only resort to other means when the dog's welfare is at stake.  IMO, it doesn't matter if a dog heels or walks behind you, but it does matter if he will "leave it" and "come".  It also matters, if you live in an apartment building, if he barks his head off all day while you are at work. 

And, by the way, if you think we need to stop the game, perhaps that comment is best addressed to those who continually label what they do with prongs, chokes, and e-collars as "positive".  I never said there was no place for prong collars in some cases, but I certainly never said that they were anything but aversive and pain inducing.  Dogs learn in two ways.  They avoid behavior that causes a negative consequence.  They repeat behavior that gets them something they want.  When you reduce it to those two scenarios, and avoid the anthropomorphizing, or lupomorphizing, training is a simpler process. 

If you genuinely gave positive training the benefit of the doubt before you resorted to +P, good for you, but I stand by my experience that you are in the minority.  Far  more people do not even understand the method, or they would not come on message boards and accuse PT's of bribing dogs, or say that a particular breed doesn't respond to clicker training very well.  Those statements bespeak their ignorance of the proper application of the method.  That isn't to say that individual dogs might not respond as well as others, but to categorically state that one breed does not respond well is nothing but pure poppycock.  If that's throwing snowballs, then let's keep building forts, because I am not going to accede that those statements are accurate when they are not.  I'm happy to discuss the nuances of the method, or the experiences of individual dogs, but considering the numbers of dogs that are perfectly acceptable candidates for PT, we have an awful lot of people on this board, and elsewhere, touting something else.

spiritdogs

No one was putting anyone down, just making the case that, many times it just the lack of proper application that makes the method ineffective.  I don't think that I've done anything but disagree respectfully.  I haven't said that anyone is stupid, doesn't love their dog, or hasn't been interested in their own dog's welfare.  What I pretty much have said, all along on this forum, is that one should use positive methods preferentially, and only resort to other means when the dog's welfare is at stake.  IMO, it doesn't matter if a dog heels or walks behind you, but it does matter if he will "leave it" and "come".  It also matters, if you live in an apartment building, if he barks his head off all day while you are at work. 

And, by the way, if you think we need to stop the game, perhaps that comment is best addressed to those who continually label what they do with prongs, chokes, and e-collars as "positive".  I never said there was no place for prong collars in some cases, but I certainly never said that they were anything but aversive and pain inducing.  Dogs learn in two ways.  They avoid behavior that causes a negative consequence.  They repeat behavior that gets them something they want.  When you reduce it to those two scenarios, and avoid the anthropomorphizing, or lupomorphizing, training is a simpler process. 

If you genuinely gave positive training the benefit of the doubt before you resorted to +P, good for you, but I stand by my experience that you are in the minority.  Far  more people do not even understand the method, or they would not come on message boards and accuse PT's of bribing dogs, or say that a particular breed doesn't respond to clicker training very well.  Those statements bespeak their ignorance of the proper application of the method.  That isn't to say that individual dogs might not respond as well as others, but to categorically state that one breed does not respond well is nothing but pure poppycock.  If that's throwing snowballs, then let's keep building forts, because I am not going to accede that those statements are accurate when they are not.  I'm happy to discuss the nuances of the method, or the experiences of individual dogs, but considering the numbers of dogs that are perfectly acceptable candidates for PT, we have an awful lot of people on this board, and elsewhere, touting something else.

I was going to write a long response but this sums it up as well or better then I could have. 

spiritdogs

No one was putting anyone down, just making the case that, many times it just the lack of proper application that makes the method ineffective.  I don't think that I've done anything but disagree respectfully. 

I find the grouping of "prongs, chokes and rolled up newspapers" to be a disrespectful, though flawed, put down. To paint the picture that skilled handlers who use corrective devices like chokes, prongs or head halters would also use rolled up newspapers, seems to me, to ignore the conventions of OC altogether (not to mention being slanderous). We all know that prongs and chokes are R-, and that a newspaper swat is P+ at best (but probably not even that) - they aren't similar consequences and are grouped together erroneously.

The discussions here are far more inviting, educational, and convivial when such generalizations are not made, and posts are either factual and dispassionate or honest and heartfelt rather than generalized, judgmental, and accusatory. 

*content removed* rw

Moderator speaking.

General notice,

Cutesy one liners, in jokes, and "elbow in the side" type stuff, are great content for a PM to someone.

Thanks all

I second Gina's comments.

spiritdogs

And, by the way, if you think we need to stop the game, perhaps that comment is best addressed to those who continually label what they do with prongs, chokes, and e-collars as "positive".

How is there a "game" involved here?  That is a disagreement, plain and simple. Person X calls it positive, you do not. There is no insult in that. 

spiritdogs

If you genuinely gave positive training the benefit of the doubt before you resorted to +P, good for you,

"If" and "genuinely" eh?  Well, thank you for the grudging compliment. There was no benefit of the doubt.  There was no doubt. I have never had to be be converted to positive training.  It is where I began, before I knew it had a name.

See, what I would like to see happen here is respectful, non-judgmental discussions of when and how P+ is useful.  People inclined to use P+, for whatever reason, will find that kind of discussion more welcoming and more helpful. Social learning theory has certain parameters for effective P+.  I believe that most people are trying their best, with the knowledge they have.  If Mary grew up in a house that say, rubbed a dog's nose in a potty accident, she may not know it is not an effective technique. If we tell her she's barbaric and cruel, or imply she's stupid or lazy, she isn't going to want to listen to anything else we have to say.  If we KINDLY explain why that method doesn't work, and suggest an alternative method, she is much more likely to consider it.

I think you'd be surprised, Spiritdogs, to discover that you and I probably agree on most principles of dog training. Where we disagree is on the principles of human training. (You can also call it teaching, for those who object to being trained. Heh.) For example:  

"Far  more people do not even understand the method, or they would not come on message boards and accuse PT's of bribing dogs, or say that a particular breed doesn't respond to clicker training very well.  Those statements bespeak their ignorance of the proper application of the method.  That isn't to say that individual dogs might not respond as well as others, but to categorically state that one breed does not respond well is nothing but pure poppycock.  If that's throwing snowballs, then let's keep building forts, because I am not going to accede that those statements are accurate when they are not. "

You might consider this alternative -

"Unfortunately, many people do not understand the method, and they accuse PT's of bribing dogs, or say that a particular breed doesn't respond to clicker training very well.  Those statements are not true.. That isn't to say that individual dogs might not respond as well as others, but to categorically state that one breed does not respond well is false.  If that's throwing snowballs, then let's keep building forts, because I feel it is important to correct misperceptions about positive dog training."

You have A LOT of knowledge and experience to share with people.  It'd be a shame if people stop listening because of presentation. 

Moderators note.  This thread needs to return to the original topic if it is to remain open.