Spin-off: what makes a positive trainer a positive trainer?

    • Gold Top Dog
    FourIsCompany
    I love science, but in dealing with my dogs, the spiritual element is MUCH more a part of our relationship (and hence, much more important to me) than the scientific.
    Okay, this is what I'm trying to get at but seem to be failing. You say "much more important"; I say I'd be hard-pressed to say which was more important. That might seem neither here nor there to you, but it's a big thing to me, especially when you also said in the same post that you wished people of a more scientific nature "could better understand and accept" people of a more spiritual nature. I'm trying to tell you that some of us DO because it is not LESS important to us than science, and that your comments are therefore unfair and inaccurate. I'm being pedantic because it's an important distinction to me. I'm a science geek and proud of it, but I'm also very spiritual and like being that way. I get tired of the same old scientist stereotype, that somehow we are cold and unfeeling and devoid of passion and don't believe in anything that can't be scientifically proven. I don't actually know very many scientists like that at all, although most of the scientists I know work with living organisms, so maybe it's not a good sample of scientists. You also say that people with a more spiritual focus with their animals are often considered wrong. I'm also refuting that by telling you that I personally am both, so it would follow that how could I think you were wrong because of your spiritual focus? It would make me wrong in my own eyes as well. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this position. I found your first couple of posts about this possibly imaginary dichotomy between spiritual and scientific a little bit offensive and hypocritical, because you're often bringing up your dissatisfaction with stereotypes, which is totally fair. Stereotypes certainly don't facilitate understanding. So maybe you can understand why I wanted to dispel that scientist stereotype even though you barely revealed it. I'm not accusing you of anything, I just wanted to make it clear to everyone that scientists are not automatically anti-spiritual and I for one use science to find my way to somewhere spiritual with my animals. That's different to not paying as much attention to the spiritual side as the scientific. And it's not the same as having a more scientific relationship than a spiritual relationship.
    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus, I don't actually see you as one or the other. The way you talk about your relationship with your rabbits and what they have taught you... it's clear to be that you enjoy both sides of the spectrum.

    When I said I wished people of a more scientific nature "could better understand and accept" people of a more spiritual nature, you apparently identified with the scientific side and took offense. I don't believe I was talking about you specifically. Was I? I don't want to name names, but there are many that I think of before you. Smile

    I apologize if I offended you or anyone. It was not my intent. As I said, I love science and I'm an atheist. I'm not anti-science and I don't look down on scientists or think they're cold. My intent was to bring everyone together, not throw us into our separate corners. Smile 

    Don't pick a corner. I don't.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    When I said I wished people of a more scientific nature "could better understand and accept" people of a more spiritual nature, you apparently identified with the scientific side and took offense. I don't believe I was talking about you specifically. Was I? I don't want to name names, but there are many that I think of before you.

    I think you were talking about ron!!! *whines* Admiiiiiin, she's picking on ron again!!!

    Sorry, back to topic.

    • Gold Top Dog

    For me it's not "science or spirituality". Both play equally important roles in my life with dogs.

    I think the difference is that because we often have specific terminology for things, that we do objectify certain occurrences with a word, such as "reinforcement" or "bridging stimulus" or "instinctive drift", people think we are all walking Skinnerian's where we look at everything in the A-B-C context (Antecedent, behaviour, consequence), that we ourselves are almost robotic in what we do. And it couldn't be further from the truth.

    Beyond teaching, beyond clickers, beyond any operant conditioning discussion, the most important thing to me is my relationship with my dogs. Relationship. Now THERE is a word you can't scientifically define. I am so in tune with animal emotions, and they are of so much importance to me, and I think I've mentioned that before. Emotions are one of those things that you really can't study very well scientifically. There is very little research done on emotion in animals (besides fear, that is. I think every animal has been through fear-based experiments over history). Even in humans there is very little research done, and a lot of it is ambiguous. Because emotion can't be "explicitily seen", a lot of scientists think we should not focus on that. I say "to hell with you", I'm going to focus on it anyhow. The same goes with meeting a dog's real needs, fulfilling what they need as a dog, and learning how to communicate WITH your dog, not just in the sense of teaching, but how to know when something is wrong, how to really KNOW your dog as you would know another person. The dance between you as you develop that relationship is nothing science can ever operationally define.

    Heck, in a whole other post I talked about developing creativity within the dog. That's another area science doesn't tend to approach much. ;-)

    When I talk about teaching a dog to sit, and what the quadrants of OC mean, in general it is usually that simple. And most people are doing exactly what I am putting words to, whether they have words for it or not. It's the same thing, I just use words to describe it. So the person who uses physical pressure to make the dog sit is using R-. The dog who is given a small cookie or pat when they sit is being R+. The dog that is collar popped for not sitting is P+. It doesn't mean we are looking at the dog as a little robotic beast with no emotions or other thoughts.

    They're just words. It's no different than a veterinarian using complex terminology to describe the surgery they are going to perform, the steps they use to get there, and the process they will follow, and likely the exact outcome that will be expected, both short term and long term. That vet is still going to be in tune with his own feelings that day, his mood, energy level, the dog's age, personality, any existing health conditions that may affect the normal step-by-step procedure of the surgery. The vet still cuddles the dog, and gives it treats, talks to it, and sometimes even cries along with you when something goes wrong. They are as emotionally invested in it as anyone else. Despite the words they use, despite the recipe-style procedures they often follow, they still work with every animal on a unique, case-by-case basis looking at that animal's state and the animal as an individual. Not an object.

    It would be a shame to think that simply because we use words like "antecedent" or "conditioned reinforcer" that people would assume we look at animals as objects or that we are somehow detached from them. For most of us it couldn't be farther from the opposite! And I certainly don't look at my teacher, my doctor, my dentist, or my psychologist (I don't have one by the way...this is an example *G*) that way, that they view me as an object. I don't know why using terms in relation to dogs is any different. Heck, I can and do use these terms in relations to my fellow HUMANS and how to change behaviour. That must really make me unemotional then.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Chuffy

    I think you were talking about ron!!! *whines* Admiiiiiin, she's picking on ron again!!!

    Sorry, back to topic.

    My own OT aside, here. I'm a big boy and I can take it. It's nice to feel important.Big Smile

    Carry on.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2
    My own OT aside, here. I'm a big boy and I can take it.

     

    You're only one of the science geeks  uh, I mean more scientifically-minded people to whom I was referring. Wink

    • Gold Top Dog

     LOL okay, okay..while it's nice to know we have some thick skinned people on here...back to topic, kay? 

    • Gold Top Dog
    FourIsCompany

    corvus, I don't actually see you as one or the other. When I said I wished people of a more scientific nature "could better understand and accept" people of a more spiritual nature, you apparently identified with the scientific side and took offense. I don't believe I was talking about you specifically. Was I? 

    No, I don't think you were, but I AM a trained scientist and I do make my living in the science sector (although I'm not a 'real' scientist because I haven't done a PhD). When anyone says something about scientists not being spiritual or anything remotely related, I feel compelled to set them straight. It's a real bummer to me that many people (including many scientists) think that science and spiritualism are mutually exclusive. I get defensive about it, because I've had my back up against the wall defending my desire to believe in things that can't be scientifically proven, and I think it's a real shame that some people (no one on this board) feel they need to attack that and that puts the more spiritually-natured people in the unpleasant position of trying to defend something that by its very nature can't really be satisfactorily defended. I've learnt to keep my mouth shut about it and have even gone as far as to lie and not come to the defence of others copping it for having a little faith. It can get nasty. So I speak out where I feel safe to so people know that some scientists are closet spiritualists.
    • Gold Top Dog

    I think the understanding needs to go both ways, regardless. There are a lot of assumptions made about non-spiritual people that are really not at all fair or based on reality. The whole "God-shaped hole" business which presumes that non-spiritual people have sort of a blank spot where other people have all the emotions that spirituality inspires in them. I have those emotions too, and that spot is quite filled, they just come from a different source or a different inspiration.