Reactive Humans? If you aren't open-minded, don't read...

 Everyone knows what "make like a tree is" (interesting that MLT is advocated and yet any leash tension is bad bad bad, I wonder what it was that made you stop and act like a tree?) I am assuming it must be some sort of tension on the leash? Perhaps the dog hit the end of the leash? Is this what causes you to make like a tree?

 The rescues need to go to their weekly adoption clinics, where there are many dogs, many people, lots of noise and cars and hustle and bustle and once again, my terrible failures and me often have to do this without our training being perfected.

anyway enough ranting,

I do think the mechanics of our different situations can have an effect. Snownose said it well that a person with a small dog can pick up their small dog "solve" a problem for the time being, even if it didn't really solve anything. Those of us with larger, stronger dogs don't always have the option of picking up a dog and securing him/her in our jacket, so we must do something about our dogs' behavior. And in fact, we may only differ in the finer subtleties of our technique, i.e., different cues or different markers.

I always walk Shadow in harness. So, leash corrections are not an option, which left me with the other option of using hands off method. I also just wondered at the distinction in breed. Will a GSD respond more promptly to stepping on a drag line than a Husky, who might think "The sled must have hit a hill. I'll just pull harder and get us over a hill" which a good Husky would do if your sled did, indeed, hit a hill.

My gosh, why the unpleasantness here?  I have literally been dragged down the street on my butt by Thor back in the days before I figured out how to most effectively train a loose leash walk.  You don't think there is tension on a leash when a dog is DRAGGING an overweight human done the street??  I said that just a few posts ago.  The method that I use now works for me and it works for the fosters I get.  If it fails to work someday, I'll find another method that WILL work.

I have also repeatedly said that I used a prong with Thor.  Big deal.  I tried everything else, including being a tree, but he could rather easily uproot me. Had I known then what I do now, I'd never have needed to use a prong, but, I made darned sure it didn't cause him any pain or harm.  Discomfort yes, but as you said, he inflicted a bit of that on himself.

 I am certainly not claiming superiority, simply sharing a method that absolutely works for me.

Typically, fosters come to me fully vetted.  However, I have had to take them to the vet for one thing or another before we've gotten to a loose leash stage and when that happens, I keep them on a VERY short lead and talk to them nonstop getting from the car to the office.  And my vet is very good about not keeping me in the waiting room with a foster...we go straight to an exam room to make the whole process less traumatic for everyone involved.  My upper body strength was seriously compromised by an injury and a number of surgeries, so I HAD to find a method that would work for me without stressing those shoulders.  I'm out of "fixes" for them....the next step is replacement which doesn't appeal to me one bit.

Why must any conversation about training methods ALWAYS be an "us vs them" thing??  Why can't we simply share ideas and methods without the "other side" feeling attacked?

ron2

I always walk Shadow in harness. So, leash corrections are not an option, which left me with the other option of using hands off method. I also just wondered at the distinction in breed. Will a GSD respond more promptly to stepping on a drag line than a Husky, who might think "The sled must have hit a hill. I'll just pull harder and get us over a hill" which a good Husky would do if your sled did, indeed, hit a hill

In my experience, I would say the GSD would get it faster, it is no secret that I feel that GSDs have superior intelligence....lol....but Huskies have the intense urge to pull, so getting stopped mid pull will confuse them for a second and they are off to pull again......lol

Ooops, double post.....

glenmar

 I am certainly not claiming superiority, simply sharing a method that absolutely works for me.

Typically, fosters come to me fully vetted.  However, I have had to take them to the vet for one thing or another before we've gotten to a loose leash stage and when that happens, I keep them on a VERY short lead and talk to them nonstop getting from the car to the office.  And my vet is very good about not keeping me in the waiting room with a foster...we go straight to an exam room to make the whole process less traumatic for everyone involved.  My upper body strength was seriously compromised by an injury and a number of surgeries, so I HAD to find a method that would work for me without stressing those shoulders.  I'm out of "fixes" for them....the next step is replacement which doesn't appeal to me one bit.

Why must any conversation about training methods ALWAYS be an "us vs them" thing??  Why can't we simply share ideas and methods without the "other side" feeling attacked?

  In your post you disagreed with mine and gave the impression that any force is wrong and not needed, I felt that I needed to once again clarify what I meant by "physical force" which is always presumed to be yanking and cranking. When you posted that you disagree and then how you did it you must have assumed that I would do it differently with "physical force". I felt the need to clarify. Was my post sarcastic? Yes it probably was. That is just the response I feel is needed when every single solitary time I have ever typed the word "dominance" "submission". "Leader", "leadership", "force”, "correction" ,”prong” or “physical touch" on this forum  I have had to elaborate and write essays on what I mean and have been in a defensive position. It gets tiresome and it does irritate me. Sorry if you bore the brunt of that, that was not my intention.

 I would be happy to stop responding in such a manner and will do so once I feel I am not called into question because I choose to use a certain word. I will be darned if I stop using words just to please people who’s only issue with the word seems to stem from CM and his TV show.

dgriego

time I have ever typed the word "dominance" "submission".

This may always draw responses since not everyone agrees that dogs are most easily described as being dominant or submissive. It's okay to define what you mean but people may not always agree with you.

ron2

This may always draw responses since not everyone agrees that dogs are most easily described as being dominant or submissive. It's okay to define what you mean but people may not always agree with you.

understood and accepted, as long as it is understood that if I feel I am being labled as bad, brutish, inhumane or lacking in understanding, I will respond in defense of myself. They may include sarcasm which I have both given and received on this forum. I can easliy accept that people do not like the words, they may not use them but how many times do I have to clarify to the same people what is meant when the word is used. I refuse to just stop using them.

Being an owner of a both a small and large dog I can attest to the difference in how I can react to the same situation.  I have learned over the years to find a method and try and apply it equally to all my animials.  But I don't always.  My large dog diffiently gets me to over react more often than my small dog. 

I do beleive that much of my more harsh reactions comes from me being reactive and not proactive. 

 Well, dgriego's response was testy, but the OP was based on an us vs. them mentality. Although  it could be argued that none of the idoggers here "insist" on positive punishment, it is a wee bit provocative to suggest an opposing opinion is akin to leash reactivity. (FTR, I insist positive punishment be in the toolbox, and I'm a softie).

I think we've all done an excellent job thus far in keeping things civil, but I internally cringed the moment I read the first post.   It was a challenging stare across the street. 

I have to say, I'm tired of the posturing on both sides.  I have a great deal of respect for people on either side of this strange battle zone - my complaint is not about individuals. Its more like a snowball has been set rolling down the hill, and has gotten needlessly large.

Let's smack it back down to size!

- Force does not equal beating your dog.

- Disliking CM does not equal disliking people who like him.

- Clicker does not equal anti-CM, or anti force.

- Use of the word ominance does not equal pro-CM, beating your dog, or anti-positive training.

Every frequent poster on this board, to my knowledge:

- does not beat his or her dog

- believes in positive training

- believes in taking responsibility for life with dogs (called leadership, NILIF, whatever)

- takes excellent care of his or her dogs, mentally and physically

- has valuable insights to share

We use different vocabulary, and sometimes disagree. That's ok.  Disagreement is valuable.  I hate to be all kumbaya, lets hold hands and sing, but it bums me out to see so many excellent people wasting time and energy on a fight that is largely made of smoke and mirrors.  Ed Frawley is not posting on dog.com, telling us to hang our dogs.

Tea and scones, anyone?
 

I didn't agree with dgreigo or crying out loud...I disagreed with CORVUS.  How much more foolish can this whole thread get?

 My LATER post was directed at dgreigo.  But not the first.

Just in case you are talking to me (???) I wasn't talking about any post of yours, glenmar. The OP was the first post - the one that started the thread?

Now drink your tea, darnit!!!  

No dog_ma, read my last post.....I did say who I was posting to and disagreeing with.

Tea heck, I'm gonna crack a good bottle of wine.

 Well I must admit that Dog-ma as usual is very wise. I agree that the original post was in a sense a call to arms, although I think everyone tried to not wade straight into battle. I confess

 I was reactive in my post and it was not really directed at Glenmar but was more of a "frustrating vent" that Glenmar happened to bear the brunt of it. I did assume that Glenmar's disagreement on the "large rescue dogs" was directed at me, where I messed up at was letting that set me off. My apologies Glenmar for ranting, the venting within the post was not really meant to be directed at you.

I'm a little lost on the basis of this post, but I do a my two cents to add. 

Strange how the subject of the OP is "Reactive Humans" and look at what we all are, reactive humans.  lol 

SOOOO I only have small dogs, I try not to "yank" on the leash due to their small body size, however, I will not pick them up because they are not behaving the way I want them to (however certain situations do warrant it for their safety).  I will get their attention, put them in a sit/stay, wait for them to calm and continue what we were doing.  That said, I have an 11" 13 lb female that pulls the leash like she is trying to pull a sled.  I have worked with her until I am blue in the face, bruised and bloody but no matter what I do she will not walk on a loose leash.  She is not being reactive to anything, she just wants to be first. 

I would like to think that if I had a big dog that I would not yank on that leash either, but I just don't know.  I think if I did it would be out of fear for what the dog was lunging at, say another dog or a human, but it would be out of fear, plain and simple.