How long do you crate?

Edie

snownose

Have you ever owned a dog with severe SA?

 

 

Nope,but nor have i owned perfect dogs in all of these years either.

 

I guess my biggest gripe is that most people seem to use the cage as the first and only option,without ever delving deeper into the dogs problems and trying to find a cure rather than the easier bandaid approach,of caging the dog so he cant cause any damage,but the problems still there at the end of the day. Now i'm talking about dogs who are caged because of behavioural problems.

 

Now dont get me started on owners who crate for no real reason other than thinking it's the done thing.Perfectly behaved dogs stuck in cages for hours and hours per day.Then there are the puppy owners who think it's allright to go straight back to work after getting a pup and think nothing of locking it up  all day forcing it to hold it's bladder,not giving it enough room to stretch and move about,something puppies and mature dogs need for proper bone growth and health. One hour is the longest i will leave any pup of mine alone for in the first weeks,one of the reasons being they cant go much longer than this before needing to toilet.

I do not think you will find people here who disagree that some dogs are crated far too long each day.  If a dog is crated, there should be adequate time also for exercise and exploration.  But, I also think that it is far kinder to keep an adolescent dog out of mischief for those brief periods when you cannot supervise.  I have heard of people who think crates are unkind, yet will whack the dog for chewing the dining room table legs off.  A dog with true separation anxiety will eat holes through walls and take the molding off your windows, and chew through solid doors.  A heavy duty crate can sometimes be the difference between life and death for these dogs while they are being rehabilitated, and the owners who have resorted to these crates often spend $500-$600 dollars on them (so that the dog will not skewer his tongue on light gauge wire crates or eat his way out of a plastic airline crate and end up with an intestinal obstruction).  I share your view that people who work 9-5 do their dogs a disservice by crating them too many hours during the day.  But, I also know people who do crate, but make an extraordinary effort to exercise the dog when they are at home, and who even pay for several days of dog day care weekly for their pups, so that they will have mental and physical stimulation.  I do wish that 9-5'ers would consider adopting adult dogs, not only because of the crating issue, but because they don't have to prolong house-training, get through the chewing stage, suffer from puppy buyer's regret, or dump the dog because they didn't realize how much work a puppy is and now "don't have time for him" or feel that "he needs room to run".  But, on this forum at least, you will find that most members are savvy enough that they do provide the exercise and training that their dogs need to the best of their ability.  As to the issues which you have personally not dealt with, consider yourself very lucky - it's heartbreaking to have a dog that is destroying your home, that you cannot rehome, and that would be euthanized if you can't find a way to help the dog get better, which is, unfortunately in the case of SA, a long, expensive, and arduous process sometimes.  Crating certain dogs keeps them safe while behavioral interventions are being made.  Please don't lose sight of that and condemn the crate altogether.

Rumour got through his SA with flying colors... he is still nervous at times......but, he is doing great. I trust him inside the house and outside within the fenced yard.

When he was a pup he wasn't left alone a lot.....I worked the afternoon shift, and DH worked during the day. I tried to keep him in the bathroom with a babygate for the few hours he was alone....what awaited DH every night was a nightmare....he chewed and ate everything he could get his mouth on, cabinet doors, the gate, floor molding, ripped the shower curtain down, ate and shredded that thing, towels....you name it, nothing was safe......we had no choice......now, thank heavens, I work from home and have loads of time to spend with them.....the crate saved his life and our sanity....

spiritdogs

As to the issues which you have personally not dealt with (referenced to Eddie, dpu added), consider yourself very lucky - it's heartbreaking to have a dog that is destroying your home, that you cannot rehome, and that would be euthanized if you can't find a way to help the dog get better, which is, unfortunately in the case of SA, a long, expensive, and arduous process sometimes.  Crating certain dogs keeps them safe while behavioral interventions are being made.  Please don't lose sight of that and condemn the crate altogether.

For those of us with real experience of having to cope with a true SA dog, I remember coming home from work to find the dog kennel in total destruction.  After getting over the shock, I had to work on the preparation for the dog to be secure the next day.  I remember emails flying back and forth as to what would be the best set up for the dog, a dog proof kennel or crate.  It was an all nighter and I decided on a dog proof kennel was best.  A 70lbs hound can destroy the crate or in the process severly hurt himself.  Also, the complete isolation and restriction of movement would have caused further emotional damage.  Most dogs can handle be crated for long periods of time in a short term but there has to be an effect on psychy after that.  The goal should always be free reign of the house.

DPU

The goal should always be free reign of the house.

I agree with this. I think a crate can be an invaluable tool in reaching that goal and I think that is where the disagreement comes in. I think many people stop working on the problem once "containment and management" seem to cure the problem. The reality is that many times, containing and managing the dog is only treating the symptom instead of treating the problem.

I've never had to use a crate past potty training, but if I needed to, you bet I would. But it would only be as a temporary measure until I figured out how to deal with the root of the issue.

As to how long a dog should be crated... I wouldn't do it over probably 8-9 hours in a 24 hour period, with a nice break after 4 hours. And I'd be absolutely certain that the dog's other needs were met. That's a fairly arbitrary number (8 hours) but it's what's required with people who work outside the home and sometimes necessary. But the goal would be free reign and I wouldn't stop addressing the issue until I got that.

I remember when you had posted that pic......your dog literally peeled the flooring up and shredded it.....I know that kind of destruction....

Edie

I guess my biggest gripe is that most people seem to use the cage as the first and only option,without ever delving deeper into the dogs problems and trying to find a cure rather than the easier bandaid approach,of caging the dog so he cant cause any damage,but the problems still there at the end of the day.

Well, I use crates on occasion and I completely agree *shock*.  I guess MY biggest gripe is not only what you've stated above, but also the assumptions that anyone who DOES use a crate automatically fits into this category.

Why is Kenya crate trained?  #1 reason - she is a performance dog.  She competes at shows.  At a dog show, not crating is simply not an option. Many shows required wire or plastic crates.  Only some allow nylon crates and only the most laid back agility shows allow ex-pens.  Also, I am of the opinion that a well-made crate is the safest way for a dog to travel.  Since Kenya goes to shows and has to ride in vehicles to get to said shows, it's only fair to her that she be used to the crate and go in/out willingly.  Before I installed a crate on the backseat of our car, I let Kenya sit on the seat.  One day, someone wasn't paying attention and moved into my lane on a 45mph street.  I had to slam on the breaks and Kenya was thrown.  Luckily, she hit the back of the passenger's seat and didn't come through the middle into the windshield.  The point is, no matter how careful *I* am when I'm driving or at shows, that doesn't guarantee that someone else won't cause an accident or someone else won't have a loose dog that is aggressive.  The safest option is simply crating the dog anytime we are not warming up or competing.

Right now at home, the crates are both open.  Dogs go in/out on their own.  They are fed in their crates with the doors open, simply because I'd rather have a food mess on a plastic crate pan than on the carpet.  If they really didn't want to eat their food in the crate, I suppose I wouldn't object to them moving their bowls, but they don't really care.  

The crates are not a cage, they are not for punishment, they do not go in there at night.  If a dog is sick, it goes in the crate while we are gone so that it has a quiet place to rest without being pestered by the 4 other animals in the house.  Otherwise, the crates are just.....there.

I suppose if everyone got their dogs as puppies, they'd have some time to work with house training and get over SA, but reality is that a lot (if not most) of us here did not get our dogs as pups, they came to us as-is, all with different issues that can't just be re-trained over night.
 

FourIsCompany

I think many people stop working on the problem once "containment and management" seem to cure the problem. The reality is that many times, containing and managing the dog is only treating the symptom instead of treating the problem.

Thats my point exactly! Caging the dog stops the external problems,ie damage,mess etc,so why bother going to the expense,time and training to fix the real internal problem??

dpu

The goal should always be free reign of the house.

I agree,but unfortunately alot of dogs are crated all of their lives,simply because it's easier for the owners

I'm not into training,have no clue what +r -p means,i've raised all of my dogs the same way,of differing breeds and personalities and yet i have never had to use a crate.My dogs do however get loads of off lead exercise morning,evening and before bed.I honestly can not figure out how i lucked out and have never had a dog with problems severe enough to have to be caged??

I do toilet training the convential way,which is taking pup out every hour or two.If i have worked when i've brought a pup home i have always ensured to have plenty of time off,usually unpaid,until pup is housetrained and 'reasonably' reliable when left alone.I get them used to being alone by slowly,slowly working my way up to hours at a time.I know some people get a pup on a friday and go back to work on the monday,this IMHO is just asking for trouble.. 

 IS this the norm?How do you all do it when bringing a pup/dog home?

Edie

I honestly can not figure out how i lucked out and have never had a dog with problems severe enough to have to be caged??

It sounds as though you got your dogs as pups?  Most of the people posting in this thread about dogs with issues like SA are heavily involved in rescue and/or are talking about dogs adopted as adults, dogs that already had issues because of being neglected, abused, abandoned, etc.  With these dogs, you have to have a way to manage the environment while working on the dog's issues.  In a perfect world, we could all stay home 24/7 with a new dog for weeks of unpaid leave until all the kinks are worked out, but when you are literally rescuing a dog from death (and I know some posters in this thread HAVE pulled dogs who were on their way to the needle or the chamber) you just have to make do with the time and resources you have.  I'm sure the dog would rather be crated while working on its issues than gassed or poisoned b/c someone who might have rescued it couldn't take several weeks off of work. 

 My female who is 7 years old spent the first 2 years of her life in a backyard shed being used as a breeding machine. Obviously no socialisation etc etc. I've had her for 5 years and she's been good as gold from day one. There were a few nerve issues at first, but i treated her like i do all my other dogs. She's fine with other people and dogs and can be let off lead with no problems. Other than her i've had all my other dogs from pups.

This will probably not be a popular attitude,but the rescue thing has me in two minds.These dogs with severe SA and other problems look like they live the most miserable of lives,not due to their owners treatment but because of their severe mental problems.Yes these dogs may have been saved from the needle,but what about all the other mentally stable dogs who are euthanised every year?? Shouldnt they be given a chance first? 

These dogs with aggression,mental problems etc etc can never really lead normal happy doggy lives,can they? How many can be let off lead to play with other dogs,how many can be left at home alone without freaking out etc etc etc etc etc.

IMHO there are fates worse than death... 

Edie

 My female who is 7 years old spent the first 2 years of her life in a backyard shed being used as a breeding machine. Obviously no socialisation etc etc. I've had her for 5 years and she's been good as gold from day one. There were a few nerve issues at first, but i treated her like i do all my other dogs. She's fine with other people and dogs and can be let off lead with no problems. Other than her i've had all my other dogs from pups.

 

This will probably not be a popular attitude,but the rescue thing has me in two minds.These dogs with severe SA and other problems look like they live the most miserable of lives,not due to their owners treatment but because of their severe mental problems.Yes these dogs may have been saved from the needle,but what about all the other mentally stable dogs who are euthanised every year?? Shouldnt they be given a chance first? 

These dogs with aggression,mental problems etc etc can never really lead normal happy doggy lives,can they? How many can be let off lead to play with other dogs,how many can be left at home alone without freaking out etc etc etc etc etc.

 

IMHO there are fates worse than death... 

Yes, I agree your attitude is not popular with me and an image of a heart made out of coal comes to mind.  This Marie Antoinette attitude is ideally suited for the person who has to do the PTS.  It is my position that only those involved in the dog's life and take responsibility for that life have the sayso right whether the dog can be saved.  So if you are true to yourself go to the shelters and find "these dogs" and take responsbility for their life. 

Edie

 My female who is 7 years old spent the first 2 years of her life in a backyard shed being used as a breeding machine. Obviously no socialisation etc etc. I've had her for 5 years and she's been good as gold from day one. There were a few nerve issues at first, but i treated her like i do all my other dogs. She's fine with other people and dogs and can be let off lead with no problems. Other than her i've had all my other dogs from pups.

 

This will probably not be a popular attitude,but the rescue thing has me in two minds.These dogs with severe SA and other problems look like they live the most miserable of lives,not due to their owners treatment but because of their severe mental problems.Yes these dogs may have been saved from the needle,but what about all the other mentally stable dogs who are euthanised every year?? Shouldnt they be given a chance first? 

These dogs with aggression,mental problems etc etc can never really lead normal happy doggy lives,can they? How many can be let off lead to play with other dogs,how many can be left at home alone without freaking out etc etc etc etc etc.

 

IMHO there are fates worse than death... 

YIKES.....with that attitude you had better be the best looking and most perfect person there is.......because, who knows....you might be replaced by a better model......

Mods note:  Ok folks, lets dial it back a bit.  Not liking someones opinion doesn't give anyone license to be rude.

Crating has always been a hot topic on this forum but I'd ask that you not attack one another over the difference of opinions.

I think timely crate training is an humane way to potty-train. Animals tend to not toilet where they sleep or eat, unless forced to by extensive hours of confinement. But, properly timed, one can take the puppy out of the crate and immediately outside. Eventually, the crate can be left open as the dog learns that the house is just a larger crate.

Since DW and I both have to work outside the home, it would always be in the best interest of everyone if we adopt or, in the case of Shadow, re-home with a dog that is already potty-trained and, also in his case, can handle being the in the yard for several hours.

Shadow had some issues that seemed like SA but were garden variety compared to others. The worst things he ever did was chew up a rented dvd and bury an ink bottle he busted in one of my blankets. And that wasn't SA, that was just boredom, somewhat of a breed trait. That's when I realized that he was happier and safer outside when we are gone for extended periods of time.

We've had the PTS discussion before with interesting and mixed results. The short version is that a number of people here have had pets with issues that would certainly have resulted in PTS if not for the intervention of increased training and environmental management. In one or two cases, re-homing was necessary. In the end, though, it will always be about the dog and what is the most humane solution.

And, for those involved in rescue, especially rescue of animals with problems, PTS is a distant remote last resort solution, just as for some of us, +P is the last resort in training. And so for those, avoiding PTS is the large reason for rescuing. Otherwise, you could just sit back and let a vet tech handle the problem.

And sometimes, in pursuit of the goal of humane treatment, we may, at times, disagree on the best route.

I grew up in a house that never crated, then we got the Houdini puppy. Within 48 hours of him arriving home I was at wits end, this boy was determined to be where we were. He jumped over boards, climbed 2 stacked 23inch baby gates, ( that is roughly 4 feet) at 12 weeks old. I bought a crate the next day, closing a door was not an option, my house is a shotgun style and the cats needed access, not to mention taking down one gate and stepping over the other was not good for my husband who faces some challenges. After advice here and on another board we got a crate and it is the best, absolute best advice we ever took. I talked to his breeder a week later and mentioned it, I was then told that the whole litter were escape artists, I somehow got the impression that Kord was the ring leader!

He was crated at night originally and a few times during the day, like at dinner or if we needed to do something like bring in groceries, after awhile he took to napping in his crate, by 8 months we were leaving the door open all the time, unless we needed to go out, so he did and does have full reign of the house. To date he has never destroyed anything.

I steamed cleaned my carpets on Friday, my husband ran errands, Kord spent 2 hours in his crate. Why? Because I will not leave him in the yard unattended, blocking the doors was not feasible as I needed to walk back and forth and Kord hates both the vacuum and the steamer and will attack them if not watched, so crated he was. The end results were, my carpets are cleaned, my husband got all his running around completed and no vacuum or steamer were murdered in my living room, oh and I should mention he got a large kong stuffed with yummies to gnaw on while I worked.

While I am sure some people crate for the wrong reasons, and other do not crate because they see it as a form of torture, there are dedicated dog owners that do crate for the safety and wellbeing of their dogs, it does not make them less dedicated, nor bad owners. With proper exercise, food and water both before, during and after it is a good tool to use.

I have never had a reason to crate Willow.  I also use a seat belt for travel.  I'm not a fan of crates in a vehicle.  It seems dangerous to have them bouncing around the inside of a crate if there is an accident.