"Leash aggression"

How do you know that every single person your dog was with was not doing the same as you? being tense, nervous or whatever feeling they had? I have seen it with my own eyes and i have doing it myself, people telling me "do you want to take my dog out for a walk? good luck buddy, he will drag you to hell" but when they see me coming back with the dog at my side they cant believe it 

...and then how many times do you walk the dog?

Your picture of leash reactivity really simplifies it to the point of silliness... it's the dog's behavior. If the owner of a leash reactive dog's nervousness is the thing to blame, then why is it that nervous people don't always find themselves with leash-reactive dogs, and that people who are not nervous find themselves with leash-reactive dogs?

And if it's the person's fault, then you'd think that any dog that person walked would present this problem.

I do think that the horrible experience of dealing with a leash-reactive dog can become quite a cycle, with the owner's anticipation of an event making the situation worse and not better... but that isn't the same as causing leash aggression. Do you see that distinction?

You said first

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I think you're way off base here. 

But at the end you said

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Gaia will demonstrate some leash reactivity, it is sometimes less when I am calm.

So am i wrong or actually i have a point here since you are giving an example of what i said was right?

The difference between your two dogs is that one of them has issues and the other one does not, so by being nervous you are adding anxiety to the female, the male has no issues so he does not react as much as the female does

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Apparently you haven't been around sighthounds too much.  Sighthounds and hounds in general aren't mirrors of their owners.  They will pick up some personality traits, but hounds are tremendously independent.  So much so that at times, you-the owner, don't matter on whit.

Before any breed they are dogs first of all, they can be independent (thats the breed) but they still need a pack (thats the dog in them), it depends on you how much of that personality you want them to show, you cant supress the personality 100% but you can manipulate it to make it something good not bad

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

but putting the collar and lead on my female (they don't wear collar and lead inside) gets her very excited and the adrenalin starts pumping.  At the point where she's on lead she's ready to hunt, or dare I say it, to kill.  She's happy, tail wagging with excitement, jumping up and landing in a play bow and very vocal.

But why you let her go all the way to the point of being ready "to kill"? why you dont calm her down first before placing the collar, why you let her go all the way to that level of excitement? she is not happy that way, she is fixated, just like a person who cant stop playing in a casino, that person is not having fun

So like i said at the beginning, first you said im "way off base" and at the end you give an example yourself that what i'm saying is right, at least you said you are working on it, just dont blame it all to her past

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

...and then how many times do you walk the dog?

Your picture of leash reactivity really simplifies it to the point of silliness... it's the dog's behavior. If the owner of a leash reactive dog's nervousness is the thing to blame, then why is it that nervous people don't always find themselves with leash-reactive dogs, and that people who are not nervous find themselves with leash-reactive dogs?

And if it's the person's fault, then you'd think that any dog that person walked would present this problem.

I do think that the horrible experience of dealing with a leash-reactive dog can become quite a cycle, with the owner's anticipation of an event making the situation worse and not better... but that isn't the same as causing leash aggression. Do you see that distinction?

How many time do i walk him has anything to do with the fact that he acts totally different when i am walking him, of course that is the dog behavior duh but depends on the owner how much of that behavior will come out

"why is it that nervous people don't always find themselves with leash-reactive dogs" thats because the dog is balanced (and probably that dog does not belong to that person) or the energy of the dog is naturally low

"that people who are not nervous find themselves with leash-reactive dogs? " well i can tell you there that those people are not as calm as you think and what it causes the bad behavior is not the leash but somethig else

"And if it's the person's fault, then you'd think that any dog that person walked would present this problem." not if the dog is used to a calm walker but i bet that if you take that dog to live with that person then the dog would end being leash reactive

We are talking about what energy you project when you walk your dog, a dog could be reactive with out matter who is walking him but at least if is a calm person is walking him then that is not leash aggressiveness, is something else, a fixation, dominance, lack of discipline, etc but for sure not leash aggression

The calm person then would have to correct or re direct the behavior but the bad behavior would not come out for being leash aggressive

But why you let her go all the way to the point of being ready "to kill"? why you dont calm her down first before placing the collar, why you let her go all the way to that level of excitement? she is not happy that way, she is fixated, just like a person who cant stop playing in a casino, that person is not having fun

 
Xerxes dogs are sighthounds - they are just a different animal from your average tail-wagging happy-go-lucky dog. There's nothing wrong weith the fact that they have that drive, it's part of their breed and perhaps her background.
 
Your explanation here is just so simplified and over the top. We're not saying leash aggression can't be worked on and improved... but it is not *caused* by the owner's feelings and emotions. The effect the owner's emotions have on leash reactivity is probably 2% of the problem. The other 98% is based on their early socialization, past experiences, and temperament. Frankly I think it is sort of insulting that you are trying to 'diagnose' our dogs with this theory of yours. I have done a lot of research on my dog's slight leash reactivity, and I know these other members have too. I have a behaviorist working with us to improve the issue. While I appreciate your thoughts on the topic, alot of the people on this forum with reactive dogs are quite knowledgeable and aware of the roots of the problem.

ORIGINAL: espencer

What do you think it really is? that term is used most of the time when the dog has an unwanted behavior only when it has a leash on, but the rest of the time he is a happy dog 

It seems that at the moment the leash is in the dog's neck then the leash has some "weird" effect on the dog that makes him beheave bad

And i agree 100%, it has an effect but thats because the owner is at the other end of the leash, the dog is a "mirror" of the owner, the feeling that the owner has at that moment go thru the leash and affects the dog

I've seen a nervous owner (of course not like shaking or anything) that is nervous because is in front of a large crowd having a dog on a leash and the dog is also nervous, but when the leash changes hands to a person that is completly calm it seems that they switched dogs too because the dog is completly calm also

The leash is like an extension of yourself that makes the dog "be part" of you too

What do you think?

If the dog is fine off leash, it isn't "aggression", it's reactivity.  The truly aggressive dog will be that way on or off the lead. 
Dogs are reactive for various reasons, some of which are handler related or exacerbated, but not all.  Some dogs simply get frustrated that they cannot get to the object of their desire - as with herding or predatory dogs who see a small furry critter run by.  Others are frustrated because they want to get to another dog to initiate play.  Still others are timid, but present an offensive posture to frighten the other dog away - since they know the leash prevents  them from escaping.  Whatever the cause, the handler needs to be the one to solve the problem, by not yanking on the leash (dog thinks "every time I see another dog [furry critter, trash can, etc.] my neck hurts - I hate other dogs").   Then, a desensitization process begins at the point where the dog can remain comfy and take treats or be rewarded with a toy.  Most handlers make the mistake of putting the dog too close to the stimulus that causes him to be reactive, and so are unable to get his attention back at that point.  This is training that must be proactive, working within the dog's comfort zone, then getting closer and closer, gradually, to the stimulus until the dog can be relaxed in close proximity to it.   The handler can be as calm as a cuke, but if the dog is placed too close to the stimulus too soon, things are still likely to fall apart.  But, that's the clue to the handler to increase the distance (reducing the performance criteria for the dog) and continue working on attention to the handler with the distraction a bit farther away until the dog is proofed at that distance.  Baby steps for some dogs.  But, worth the effort.
"Feisty Fido", "Scaredy Dog", and other books address the protocol for this in greater detail.  dogwise.com

Espencer:

What you are saying does not square with my experience. Go ahead and think it if you want, but I don't think it's a particularly helpful way to think about leash reactivity.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: dogslife


I walk them separately.  I am not anxious in walking my dogs.  I do not do anything different with these dogs.  Her personality is "hyper".  She is a great little gal and her energy level is high.  The male has a lot of energy as well, just more self control.  He isn't as fast of a runner as her. 

To calm her on a walk, I try to redirect her attentions to surroundings, me, have treats in my pocket ...anything to get her out of that tunnel vision.  She is better when I can get her attention.  Siberians were bred to pull sleds.  It is her instinct, and I am trying to work her through this.  Very difficult!

Something interesting that I noted today.  Previously, I thought the male was a better listener.  But when I made a command "get downstairs".  She obediantly did just that, looking at me.  The male, went into another room!  And I had to get him and bring him in the direction to get him to go.   Also, "get in your crate", she goes right in and he will only go in if he gets a treat.

I know what you are talking about, i used to have a Siberian and he was breaking every leash he was having, i understand that having two at the same moment walking would be bad, what do you do BEFORE going out to walk? is she hyper even before crossing out the door? is she hyper before putting the leash on? because if you make her being calm before those two things happen you will have more control over the walk

Let me start by saying that these guys are puppies still, 8 mos old!  And usually puppies are hyper, if they are healthy, right?  But the female is more hyper than an average puppy, on the leash esp.   I think what gives her excessive hyperactivity is the fact that she is very smart.  But her intelligence leads way to fear, and the inability to concentrate on anything but pulling once a leash is put on her... the kind of hyper she exhibits on the leash is due to the fact that she has like a tunnel vision, she was bred to pull and comes from a very long line of sled dogs...

I was remarking in my last post about how excellent she can be at following commands.  Once she is paying attention to me she is just as perfect a pet as can be.

This dog is always hyper.  But in a good way.  She is sheer concentrated energy wrapped in fur.  When she plays, she plays.  When she sleeps, she really sleeps well.  The two play very actively together.  I am thinking that when they mature, there will be an easing up on the leash walking. 

From your previous experience, you said you had a Siberian husky.  Was it a thoroughbred or mix?    At what age did you see maturity in your dog? 

I have never had a broken leash due to a walk with her.  She has gotten loose, running out the door, but comes right back to me on command.    She truly is smart and good at obeying commands.  I do not exhibit anxiety or nervousness with her at all.  The leash is like an instinctive  cue.  She is excessively happy about a "walk", which is really "pull".  She wants to run.  It makes her soo happy.  I am sure she would work out excellent on any race with a team. 

So, anyways I disagree with the idea that you think (editing in here; 'MY') anxiety is causing my dog to be hyper on a leash.(she is quite able to be hyper all by herself!!!)  And I also disagree with you about it being  called aggression.  Aggression is having the connotation of being leader in a haughty manner, causing anguish due to anger.  And that just is not in her state of being .

. 

Gaia will demonstrate some leash reactivity, it is sometimes less when I am calm. On the other hand, sometimes it's worse.

Don't take things out of context espence...I didn't take anything out of context with your post now, did I? 

   so by being nervous you are adding anxiety to the female, the male has no issues so he does not react as much as the female does

 

Where did I say I was nervous?  Please point me in that direction. 

  Before any breed they are dogs first of all, they can be independent (thats the breed) but they still need a pack (thats the dog in them), it depends on you how much of that personality you want them to show, you cant supress the personality 100% but you can manipulate it to make it something good not bad

What are you talking about?  Please go meet someone with sighthounds and then discuss this with me.  You are making generalizations that don't apply.

  But why you let her go all the way to the point of being ready "to kill"? why you dont calm her down first before placing the collar, why you let her go all the way to that level of excitement? she is not happy that way, she is fixated, just like a person who cant stop playing in a casino, that person is not having fun

Again taken out of context.  Pharaoh Hounds are HUNTERS.  HUNTERS KILL GAME.  Every time either of them go outside they are, in their mind, going on a hunt.  To them a game animal is any animal.  And since you have, obviously, never been around sighthounds nor around Pharaoh Hounds you cannot possibly understand how quickly they can go from pack drive to prey drive nor how deadly serious they can be about prey. 

Are they having fun hunting?  I'd say so.  All body language points to it.  And it's what they have been bred to do for thousands of years. 

  So like i said at the beginning, first you said im "way off base" and at the end you give an example yourself that what i'm saying is right, at least you said you are working on it, just dont blame it all to her past

Taken out of context. 

  And i agree 100%, it has an effect but thats because the owner is at the other end of the leash, the dog is a "mirror" of the owner, the feeling that the owner has at that moment go thru the leash and affects the dog

That's what you said.  It's because of the owner at the other end of the leash.

I know you like to stir up debate, and debate is pretty healthy.  But you cannot possibly take a "one size fits all" attitude with dogs and dog training.  It does not work.  Just as every experience in your life has shaped you, every experience in a dog's life has shaped it.   They aren't cookies and "cookie cutter" training doesn't work over the long haul.

That's what you said. It's because of the owner at the other end of the leash.

I know you like to stir up debate, and debate is pretty healthy. But you cannot possibly take a "one size fits all" attitude with dogs and dog training. It does not work. Just as every experience in your life has shaped you, every experience in a dog's life has shaped it. They aren't cookies and "cookie cutter" training doesn't work over the long haul.

 
And this I do agree with, strongly.  A good example to me is children with special needs.  A child is at first a human, as you say a dog is first a dog (then a breed), but the learning styles and developmental levels are huge in the process of learning.  The ability to learn a new skill is going to be directly related to the ability to teach, the method of teaching won't be the exact same for each person. 
 
Our difficulty is going to be in the methodology we use to teach.  When you have a dyslexic child or an autistic child, the normal methodology won't work. 
 
We need a method that the student will be able to learn from.  Is that apparent to anyone else.  ?

This theory doesn't really explain why Conrad behaves one way towards certain dogs whether he's on a leash or behind a fence--and another when still on-leash but allowed to actually greet the other dog. Behind the fence, he's not on even a leash, and if it's in our yard, I may just be standing on the porch or even inside looking out a window. I have nothing to do with that at that moment.
 
I do think that how one holds the leash can have an effect on the dog, and certainly keeping a very tight leash can up a dog's stress level in certain situations. I was really helped by our last obedience trainer when she suggested that we all lighten up on our leashes a bit and trust our dogs more. That really had an impact on Marlowe's ability to feel calm during the exercises and the test.
 
But that really only goes so far. There's a lot of reasons for leash and barrier reactivity and I won't say that it's never ever caused by the handler's attitude (and existing problems probably aren't helped by an anxious attitude),  but I do think it's a lot more complicated than that.

I am not saying that if you are calm then your dog will stop having issues right now, i'm not saying that if you are calm the dog wont come out with the breed inside of him, what i am saying is that if you are calm during the walks, not tense, not nervous, etc that will help you to have the dog in more calm state of mind

You can be "calm" but your body lenguage may be showing something else, you can be calm but if the dog has issues, fixations or hyperactivity then he wont care who is at his side, then he needs discipline, boundries and limitations, limitations like not letting him going all the way to be ready "to kill", limitations like not letting him being to the extreme of being hyper

Yes Siberians are high energy dogs but you can manipulate the breed and drain that energy in a way that does not cause you problems while walking

Of course Pharaoh Hounds have fun hunting, just like beagles have fun sniffing, etc. but you can re direct that behavior to other activities so at the moment of just walking they are not giving you problems because over excitement or whatever it is

Like is said BEFORE, the reason of the problem could be whatever you want, hunting breed, hyperactivity, agressive breed, etc but if the dog is leash reactive then it has to do with the owner, there is not other reason why the dog only has bad behavior when they have a leash on them but when they dont they are fine, if you have problems while you have them on a leash and you are calm then that is NOT leash reactivity or leash aggression

espencer, with all due respect I don't think you are qualified to make this diagnosis on all of our dogs and on ourselves as owners/handlers.
 
Like a previous poster mentioned, a leash feels to a dog like they are cornered. They can't turn and run, they can't communicate with other dogs the way they naturally would. Some dogs' temperaments cannot easily handle this barrier.
 
And while exercise is important for addressing any behavior issues, I disagree that by draining a dog's energy you will solve leash reactivity.
 
This behavior can be seen off leash too - if you put a reactive or fearful dog into a cage and let other dogs approach it, you might see some reactivity - because the dog feels vulnerable and unable to flee.

Like is said BEFORE, the reason of the problem could be whatever you want, hunting breed, hyperactivity, agressive breed, etc but if the dog is leash reactive then it has to do with the owner, there is not other reason why the dog only has bad behavior when they have a leash on them but when they dont they are fine, if you have problems while you have them on a leash and you are calm then that is NOT leash reactivity or leash aggression

espence, you started a thread with an assertion and then challenged us to disprove that assertion.  We have tried to explain to you that sometimes it is not the owner but the dog.  You emphatically deny our responses by re-asserting your original thesis.  What are you trying to accomplish other than riling everyone up?  Your rhetoric doesn't even follow logical means.  If it's the owner, then owners of multiple dogs would have the same leash reactivity.  But many of us do not.  Therefore your argument is null.  Defend it if you will, but you are like Don Quixote charging after our windmills with your "it's the owner" lance. 

If you want to learn a bit more, drop the assertion and reshape your opinion based upon what we are telling you.  Otherwise you're just stirring the pot and nothing will be accomplished.

Now to follow my previous post I feel the need to say this:

When dogs are faced with a situation they have very few choices on how to deal with that situation.  They can do nothing, which most of us would prefer.  They can greet the new situation with a tail wag and excitement, another preferred behavior. 

Or they can use the fight or flight response.  That response is the default response in alot of dogs.  The only problem is...the leash.  As was stated before, the dog feels trapped and cannot flee.  Therefore the dog  becomes more agitated and this exacerbates the need to flee or fight.  The more the dog is restrained, the higher  the anxiety levels rise. 

I know that everyone believes that dogs are social creatures, which is true.  However, if you've ever seen wild wolves welcome strange wolves into their territory you'll know that there are social units that are cohesive and strangers are generally not tolerated.  They are generally met with aggression and showed the way out, or if they are insistent they are killed.  Thus the "fight or flight" response is probably more ingrained in most dogs than the "do nothing" response.

We force dogs to live by a set of rules which we supply,  boundaries that cross "what is right" in dog sense.  In fact these rules aren't always static either.  We encourage the dog to sound the alarm when strangers are near the house, yet discourage them from sounding the alarm when Auntie Mabel, who hasn't been seen in 5 years, comes over for the family reunion. 

Leash reactivity is a complicated subject and cannot just be explained away with a cavalier wave of the hand..."oh it's the owners."  To do that would be unfair to owners and to their dogs.

Espencer, what was your Siberian husky like when you had one?  And how did you deal with him/her?
 
I think it is good to share experiences here and it will help many to see the different pov (points of view).  The idea that a transference of anxiety is transferred to a dog is certainly going to happen with some situations.  However, it is not true for all situations.   
 
.." if the dog has issues, fixations or hyperactivity then he wont care who is at his side, then he needs discipline, boundries and limitations.."
 
If you would tell me about your Siberian, how did you handle him/her?  What was the dogs personality?  How did you discipline, set boundaries and limitations?  I really would like to hear your personal experience.
 
"...Yes Siberians are high energy dogs but you can manipulate the breed and drain that energy in a way that does not cause you problems while walking ..."
 
What do you mean that you manipulate the breed and drain his energy?  My dogs are constantly playing together and they do tire themselves out. They aren't tied to a doghouse, but they have a fenced in yard which they make excellent use of.   
 
"...you can re direct that behavior to other activities so at the moment of just walking they are not giving you problems because over excitement or whatever it is .."
 
Yes, to this I do agree!  (and am doing.)  Maybe there are better diversional activity that you know of, please do tell...
 
..." if the dog is leash reactive then it has to do with the owner, there is not other reason why the dog only has bad behavior when they have a leash on them but when they dont they are fine, if you have problems while you have them on a leash and you are calm then that is NOT leash reactivity or leash aggression .."
 
Ok, well, I think the original thought you portrayed in the beginning of this thread has changed a little!  Right?  It is not the person/s fault  if the person is calm...  However my puppy is hyper, and she is good at following commands, and I am calm however, MY puppy does display  a sort of leash reactivity.  Just like a normal Siberian .  But it is not a desired behavior  to ME.  
 
 
I think that we may be mixing words when we talk about a nervous person.  A better word may be inconfident person.  But even my confidence in my situation is not mattering here.  I am calm and confident with her. 
 
I do agree that she needs to learn boundaries, which she does excellent in the home and in the yard. 
 
Another funny thing I will share with you is that I tried to walk her with her brother to see if she could get a little of his good behavior to rub off on her.  Guess what happened?