Should Methods Vary with Dog's "Personality" and/or Breed?

Kim_MacMillan

I would have to say yes and no.

For the yes part, I would have to say that I certainly would alter my intensity of teaching, speed in teaching, rewards used, etc, based upon the age, personality, breed (to a very lesser extent - I worry much less about breed than I do about personality), and attention span of the dog.

For the no part - the principles I use affect all dogs, and all species, pretty much identically. That's why I love using the concepts that I do, because you don't use "this method" for breed A and "this method" for breed B because Breed A's method is for "hard dogs" and Breed B is a "soft" dog. Clicker work works with ALL ranges of dogs equally, where the differences come in is HOW you motivate them, what rewards you use, and what types of things are of interest to the dog itself.

 

That's the exact point I was going to make. Regardless of whether I want to change the behaviour of my easy, human-savvy old dog or my vaguely tame but still wild solitary hare, my approach is exactly the same. I first ask myself "Why are they doing that?" I observe, develop a theory and treat that theory. If the treatment doesn't work, I go back to step one and adjust my treatment until I get it right. But I always aim to first fulfil the animal's natural compulsion behind its behaviour, and then to encourage the preferred behaviour, then to make that behaviour habit and break the habit of the old behaviour. I often find breaking habits becomes the most pressing part of my treatment.

So for me, it always comes down to listening to my animals. When they do something I don't want them to do, I ask myself what they're telling me and try to understand their motivations. Understanding that opens the door to providing them with what they want as a reward and taking it away as a punishment. The method is always the same, but figuring out the appropriate rewards and punishments can be wildly different, even for different behaviours in the same animal.  

spiritdogs

put on a vibration collar and teach the dog to look at the handler when the collar vibrates - this enables the handler to then call the dog using a hand signal

 

And I need to amend an earlier statement. I would rather use the virbrating collar rather than the remote collar that delivers a shock. Call it a side-effect of my career. Getting shocked doesn't teach me anything other than to recoil. I would use possibly use a vibrating collar to teach field trial, if the dog is out of range of my voice. And I think it would be great for a deaf dog or a blind one. But, as you, I would still apply it in a +R way.

Do you think different methods and philosophies of training and behavior modification should be used on different dogs? Why or why not?

yes........ it depends on what one is attempting to do such as teach a dog to "come" or teach a dog not to jump up on people, for example......... it also depends on what is going on in present moment, energy-wise....... if a dog is snarling at another dog, i am quite likely to treat (and react to it) it differently than if it is engaged in a full blown attack.

What determines the method(s) and tools you choose? Breed? "Personality" or other traits?

i think i answered that above ----- present moment situations, what it is i am trying to accomplish, the dogs temperment, etc.

I'm curious to know how people determine whether or not to use different methods and if so, why - and if not, why not?

i am quite likely to teach a dog to come, sit, etc with NILF type manipulations because, from experience, it works..... and because i'm not really into more precise refinement (shaping behaviors), i will just be satisfied with a simple "sit" or "come"...... as far as corrective measures, i am likely to try different things and go with what seems to work.... for example, with our new puppy, smokey, she really likes water and likes it so much, that she likes to get her paws into the water bowl and pull it out with her paws...... and so i am finding myself, when i see her put a paw in the bowl, i simply pull her paw out and stand her in front of the bowl so she can finish her drink..... eventually, she'll stop doing that...... i don't need to do a "ceasar bite" into her neck just yet....... but if i find that this pulling her back out of the water bowl doesn't work over the course of say, a month, then i would likely increase the level of correction and may use a "cesar bite"....... i'm not sure if that illistrates an answer to your question..... alot of what i do is by feeling what is needed in the moment coupled with history as to what is working with a specific dog and what is not.

ron2

DPU

To me supercede means escalating and competing.

That wasn't what I meant by supercede. I meant to replace or provide a reward more important or stimulating than the previous, though my reward could mean more because it's coming from me.

DPU

Her reward for a requested behavior was a pet and a cuddle.  Was I rewarding the requested behavior or was I reinforcing the nervous behavior. 

You were rewarding a requested behavior. The reward doesn't always have to be food.

Section edited out by DPU

DPU

In Drizzle's case, her demeanor in a training session was nervousness and fear. 

Why do you suppose that was? And did the cuddling take away the fear and give her some control or ease that you would only lead her to a good place? Or was it something else?

To accept another reward, the dog has to reach satiation with the reward the dog has or a higher value reward has to be presented.  By you adding the social factor of the reward coming from you, this ups the reward and you could have used the same reward.  This begs the questions about reward based training methods, which is more high value and beneficial to both the dog and the human, food reward or affection?

I know I was rewarding the behavior and not the emotional state of the dog because the dog would then offer the behavior on request.  The affection did not affect the dog's nervous state.  The dog's nervous state was caused by the environment of many people, many dogs, huge facility, and a lady in the middle talking loud and pacing (the instructor).  Treatment of this state was acclimation and distractions and the distractions was the training and interacting with me. 

I am sitting here and really enjoying this thread....good points made by everyone

DPU

To accept another reward, the dog has to reach satiation with the reward the dog has or a higher value reward has to be presented.

I disagree with the part about satiation, to some extent. A dog doesn't have to be bored with a particular reward. But a higher value reward can get their attention if a regular reward is not working. For example, good girl may not be working but good girl plus a cuddle is enough of a higher or intensified reward, the point being to offer something more rewarding or important than the stimulus. Although, I can see the theoretical point about satiation. You always want the high value reward to mean something, so you don't overuse it, if that is possible, so that it still has a higher value, relative to other rewards, and can still be used in a situation where your standard reward is not working as well. Otherwise, why not use the highest reward all the time.

And I must trot out my one dog experience. I haven't found where he gets tired of the drippy roast beef, yet. Other than just plain getting full from eating. So, rather than a theoretical limit, it would be interesting to find functional limits, aside from just being full.

I think the thing that is so attractive about operant conditioning is that it works on a wide range of species, never mind breeds or individuals.  But, HST, the method itself is fluid with many variables.  It is indeed "one size fits pretty much all" because you can stretch it in so many different ways.

I start out with the same philosophy for all dogs - I use the gentlest method possible with the least amount of force.  If it doesn't work I think WHY NOT?  How can I tweak this so this method will work?  If that dog needs more pressure or more force, then so be it; I adjust as ncessary.  Sometimes I wonder though, whether the dog really did need more force or whether I simply wasn't skilled enough to continue in a more positive vein.

I do think the individual breed/type/personality plays a huge role.  I think herding types (generally speaking) are MUCH more sensitive to the nuances of your tone of voice and posture; they can get "offended" much more easily than your "hard" type dogs....  They don't appreciate a hard hand and they dont need one.  Perhaps it is because they have been so intensely bred to work WITH a human, in partnership.  That's not to say they don't respond well to pressure.... but you have got to be very careful how much and when, more so than with other types IMO.

Chuffy

do think the individual breed/type/personality plays a huge role.  I think herding types (generally speaking) are MUCH more sensitive to the nuances of your tone of voice and posture; they can get "offended" much more easily than your "hard" type dogs.... 

This is generally true, although the reason I said (perhaps I should clarify) that I look at breed a lot less, is that within a breed you can get every possible type of personality. You can get sensitive BC's, and pretty BC's that are as hard as stone, you can get drivey BC's, and very lazy BC's, you can get very breed-specific BC's, an BC's with no herding ability whatsoever! I remember once helping to help test a litter of whippets. Talk about diversity within a litter. There was one pup that was totally outgoing, bold, not shy of anybody or anything (not what I'd call a true "Whippet" temperament). There was one that was shy, reserved, not really wanting to interact with anybody really (again, not a true |Whippet personality). There was one that was quite reserved at first around people, but once it got to know you it loved you, and was sweet and pushy, yet sensitive. Yet another pup was quite in your face about jumping on you and interacting with you, but it didn't like to be touched as much as the previous one, even though it outwardly was a lot less reserved.

Especially in the general case of working with dog behaviour, that's why I tend to focus more on the dog's personality than its breed, especially if you're working with a dog with unknown origins, or if I'm working with mixed breeds (in essence you can't at all depend on breed there!) I always keep breed in mind, so that I know what types of things I might expect, but in essence I read dogs case by case, as I'm interacting with them, to determine what things will work best with that particular dog (again, within the realm of my philosophy, which doesn't change a whole lot from dog to dog!).

Kim_MacMillan

Chuffy

do think the individual breed/type/personality plays a huge role.  I think herding types (generally speaking) are MUCH more sensitive to the nuances of your tone of voice and posture; they can get "offended" much more easily than your "hard" type dogs.... 

This is generally true, although the reason I said (perhaps I should clarify) that I look at breed a lot less, is that within a breed you can get every possible type of personality. You can get sensitive BC's, and pretty BC's that are as hard as stone, you can get drivey BC's, and very lazy BC's, you can get very breed-specific BC's, an BC's with no herding ability whatsoever! I remember once helping to help test a litter of whippets. Talk about diversity within a litter. There was one pup that was totally outgoing, bold, not shy of anybody or anything (not what I'd call a true "Whippet" temperament). There was one that was shy, reserved, not really wanting to interact with anybody really (again, not a true |Whippet personality). There was one that was quite reserved at first around people, but once it got to know you it loved you, and was sweet and pushy, yet sensitive. Yet another pup was quite in your face about jumping on you and interacting with you, but it didn't like to be touched as much as the previous one, even though it outwardly was a lot less reserved.

Especially in the general case of working with dog behaviour, that's why I tend to focus more on the dog's personality than its breed, especially if you're working with a dog with unknown origins, or if I'm working with mixed breeds (in essence you can't at all depend on breed there!) I always keep breed in mind, so that I know what types of things I might expect, but in essence I read dogs case by case, as I'm interacting with them, to determine what things will work best with that particular dog (again, within the realm of my philosophy, which doesn't change a whole lot from dog to dog!).

I can feel myself resonating with you A LOT here.  Another factor that should not be ignored is the poor breeding going on everywhere, and the results of this far outweigh the offspring produced by conscientous breeders.  So many many many "pure bred dogs" just do not behave in a way you would expect of the breed... particularly true with the popular breeds, labs, collies and pitties to name a few.

I should add, that the breed doesn't really affect what I do INITIALLY.  I start out the same - the gentlest, most positive way possible.  Then, the dog and I feel our way forwards.  I often find however, that if I have to tweak my posture, or modulate my tone, it is AFTERWARDS I will spot that and notice patterns in how *I* have to adjust in relation to what "type" I am working with.  If I was landed with a collie tomorrow I ould not think "well its a collie so I must do this".  BUT, having worked with a few different types, I am using hindsight and spotting patterns.... this type of dog has generally been like this, that type has been like that, with this type I often have to..... See what I mean?

Chuffy

BUT, having worked with a few different types, I am using hindsight and spotting patterns.... this type of dog has generally been like this, that type has been like that, with this type I often have to..... See what I mean?

Oh yes, I understand what you mean by that very well. :-) But I find those "types" usually across breeds, regardless OF breed, although there are some breeds that have definite patterns within them (and relating to what you said, these are usually the less popular breeds that have remained truer to type, with less variability in dispositions). For the most part though, you would be able to find a "type" of dog across a wide variety of breeds. That's what I was getting at. Then, of course, you have those dogs in EVERY breed that throw you for a loop and are like nothing you've seen before, in any breed, which takes you back to the case-by-case philosophy. :-P Dogs are so fun, they are an endless source of education, it's why I try as little as possible to create "formulas" to work with dogs, but take each dog as they arrive.

Chuffy

They don't appreciate a hard hand and they dont need one.  Perhaps it is because they have been so intensely bred to work WITH a human, in partnership.  That's not to say they don't respond well to pressure.... but you have got to be very careful how much and when, more so than with other types IMO

 

That sounds a lot like what Rebecca says about training dogs to herd and work sheep. She doesn't have the time to use a clicker and treats. Things move too fast. She uses "pressure" by vocal tone and command, as well as the location of herself and the sheep.

I use the methods of operant conditioning. How exactly I apply these methods depends entirely on the dog and the environment and what we are trying to accomplish. Using "cookie cutter" methods is just silly, as is deciding FOR THE DOG what is aversive and what is rewarding. The dog gets to decide that.

lostcoyote

Do you think different methods and philosophies of training and behavior modification should be used on different dogs? Why or why not?

yes........ it depends on what one is attempting to do such as teach a dog to "come" or teach a dog not to jump up on people, for example......... it also depends on what is going on in present moment, energy-wise....... if a dog is snarling at another dog, i am quite likely to treat (and react to it) it differently than if it is engaged in a full blown attack.

What determines the method(s) and tools you choose? Breed? "Personality" or other traits?

i think i answered that above ----- present moment situations, what it is i am trying to accomplish, the dogs temperment, etc.

I'm curious to know how people determine whether or not to use different methods and if so, why - and if not, why not?

i am quite likely to teach a dog to come, sit, etc with NILF type manipulations because, from experience, it works..... and because i'm not really into more precise refinement (shaping behaviors), i will just be satisfied with a simple "sit" or "come"...... as far as corrective measures, i am likely to try different things and go with what seems to work.... for example, with our new puppy, smokey, she really likes water and likes it so much, that she likes to get her paws into the water bowl and pull it out with her paws...... and so i am finding myself, when i see her put a paw in the bowl, i simply pull her paw out and stand her in front of the bowl so she can finish her drink..... eventually, she'll stop doing that...... i don't need to do a "ceasar bite" into her neck just yet....... but if i find that this pulling her back out of the water bowl doesn't work over the course of say, a month, then i would likely increase the level of correction and may use a "cesar bite"....... i'm not sure if that illistrates an answer to your question..... alot of what i do is by feeling what is needed in the moment coupled with history as to what is working with a specific dog and what is not.

 

 

Just as an example of a different method for the pup who plays in the water bowl.  Yup, it's messy and annoying.  But, rather than physically manipulate the dog, I might simply wait until she took the paw out of the water herself, then wait a second or two and C/T.  So, she gets rewarded for not having her paw in the bowl.  I realize that putting the foot in the bowl is very self-rewarding, so I would use a reinforcer that the dog prefers over that. 

Or, another method...if puppy puts her paw in the bowl, oops - the bowl disappears.  I simply pick it up.  Every time she puts the paw in, the bowl goes away.  Pretty soon, pup figures out that just drinking without pawing is the way to get the water you want.

Side note: Sequoyah was this pup!!!!  And, she got C/T method.  Consequently, she does not put her paw in the family water bowl, but still has enough confidence to put all four into the wading pool, and my guess is that she WILL bob for tennis balls this weekend at my friend's dogtoberfest.

The point that I was trying to make is that my philosophy is that you try hands off training before you resort to hands on, but that there are different things to try within that context.  Which also doesn't mean that I never touch a dog.  It means that isn't where I generally start.  I have found that the more I adhere to that philosophy, the more I learn that most dogs never need to be manipulated in or out of position that much.  It has made me a more patient trainer.  Just my two cents. 

You've had a lots of great educated responses - I can only answer with regard to Bugsy who is some ways is the easiest dog ever to train and in others we are still looking for the key

We have had to use lots of different techniques with him and that is due to his personality.  I can't truly answer about breed characteristics because we don't know the breeds in him.  He loves his people but is not handler focused.  he is rather independent and can get focused on something with such intensity it can be disconcerting.  He loves food but other things can trump it.   Strongest dog I have ever been near - by the time he was 6 mos old he was FAR stronger than me, he can do the mule thing and you haven't a prayer.  You can NEVER make him do anything, with a gentle approach he will do anything for you.  Pain tolerance is super high. Psycho prey drive.  Too smart for his own good. No fear and very confident.

He has grown up with my friend's GR - who is the same age - and she is handler focused, much less intense, dependent, and submissive.  We have a good chuckle as to what works for her and what works for him and inevitably if it works for her it doesn't for him and vice versa.

That's my thoughts and as for how to decide what to use well - if it works great if it doesn't try another method!