Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

snownose

The more CM gets disected in public, the more famous he will be.....when one isn't spoken about anymore, one has lost that household name.....

Yeah, but what's in it for the people who are constantly hunting him down, in the manner of obsessed stalker ex-lovers? In the media, in blogs and in forums, it's repeated. I cannot understand why people are willing to turn themselves into crass and ugly vigilantes in trying to take him down.

If people simply laid out their arguments and objections, I'd take them more seriously. But the limitless attacking, in which people are willing to trade away their own supposed moral ground ... this kind of hypocrisy I cannot understand.

Why would Millan's "bounty hunters" be willing to show themselves as intolerant, stingy and mean, ruining their own reputations in this pursuit? What makes it worth violating one's integrity?

Ixas_girl

Yeah, but what's in it for the people who are constantly hunting him down, in the manner of obsessed stalker ex-lovers? In the media, in blogs and in forums, it's repeated. I cannot understand why people are willing to turn themselves into crass and ugly vigilantes in trying to take him down.

If people simply laid out their arguments and objections, I'd take them more seriously. But the limitless attacking, in which people are willing to trade away their own supposed moral ground ... this kind of hypocrisy I cannot understand.

Why would Millan's "bounty hunters" be willing to show themselves as intolerant, stingy and mean, ruining their own reputations in this pursuit? What makes it worth violating one's integrity?

Answer is very simple...." An Elitist Attitude".....THEY know it all, anyone with a different approach MUST be taken down. So much for being "POSITIVE"......LOL

Ixas_girl

DPU

then he will be a true leader over the bunch

DPU,

Will that make him even more threatening to people? Will they then bash him even harder? For example, if his show offers rewards training protocols as well as his standard exercise, discipline and affection philosophy, then there's not really much room for a competing "R+" show, right? And, if he takes the wind out of his critics' sails, will they jump on him even harder, rather than applaud his growth?
 

 It is interesting that other well-known trainers even mention dominance and submission and pack principles in many of their books, but they are never vilified for it.

Ixas_girl

Why would Millan's "bounty hunters" be willing to show themselves as intolerant, stingy and mean, ruining their own reputations in this pursuit? What makes it worth violating one's integrity?

I haven't heard a thing about this. I admit, I don't read blogs or dogster (He's a member - LOL) or other dog forums, but I've sure seen a lot of Cesar-haters in my times on different forums. But no one who would actually DO anything about it. Are there really people who wish to take him out? Ex-lovers?

Anyway, I think the reason people hate him is fairly simple. And it's just my opinion. They disagree with him.They think he's wrong. They think he hurts dogs. Additionally, he's got a forum to speak to and influence many millions of people. That threatens them and their way of thinking.

It's almost like the movies Dogma, The Last Temptation of Christ or The Da Vinci Code (all of which I loved). Many religious people hated those and other movies that threaten their way of thinking about something that's dear to their heart (their religion). And they are just movies. Stories. Fiction. Cesar is a real life person, whose jargon is repeated all over the country and televised into people's homes several times a week. And his success brings in more and more proponents of "Cesar's Way", placing his opponents in a smaller and smaller group. It's threatening to people who don't use his methods and think they are "wrong" and even hurtful to something that's dear to their heart (dogs).

That's how I see it, anyway. Just my opinion. Simply, they think what he's doing in wrong.

Ex-lovers? They may just want a piece of the pie!  

 Disclaimer:  I have never seen an episode of The Dog Whisperer, watched anything longer than a 2 minute clip on YouTube or read one of his books.  I couldn't pick that guy out of a lineup so I am not in a position to comment on his methods.  I neither like nor dislike him.

Is applying judgment on those who do not like Cesar and their motivations for such not EXACTLY the same as people who don't like Cesar judging him?  Each side thinks the other is wrong.  Period.  Those who don't like Cesar and are prepared to stand up and be vocal about it are to be COMMENDED, as we all are when we defend our beliefs on any subject whatever platform is appropriate and available to us.  People are free to disagree and that's what makes the world go round.  Cesar Milan HAS a platform for defending his beliefs - a widely broadcast and wildly popular TV series.  Is it not right, proper and democratic that there be spaces available, such as internet forums, for people to advocate opposing views?  If this guy were a politician and every dissenting voice against him were stifled, there would be uproar.

Benedict

Is applying judgment on those who do not like Cesar and their motivations for such not EXACTLY the same as people who don't like Cesar judging him?  Each side thinks the other is wrong.  Period.  Those who don't like Cesar and are prepared to stand up and be vocal about it are to be COMMENDED, as we all are when we defend our beliefs on any subject whatever platform is appropriate and available to us.  People are free to disagree and that's what makes the world go round.  Cesar Milan HAS a platform for defending his beliefs - a widely broadcast and wildly popular TV series.  Is it not right, proper and democratic that there be spaces available, such as internet forums, for people to advocate opposing views?  If this guy were a politician and every dissenting voice against him were stifled, there would be uproar.

Benedict

Each side thinks the other is wrong.  Period.

I don't think anyone is wrong. I take information from all sides and apply it as I determine is needed. Actually, I'm the same politically (Interesting that you mentioned politics).

Benedict

Those who don't like Cesar and are prepared to stand up and be vocal about it are to be COMMENDED

I agree. Especially when they can articulate WHY. (I definitely don't think ANYONE should be silenced!) But it's my experience that many Cesar-haters are just that. They hate him without really knowing why. They've never seen his show, they just don't like him. I've asked on other forums why they hate him and the biggest reason I've seen is the fear that the average Joe will misuse his methods. Disclaimers throughout the show don't matter to them. And they have no problem with Evil Knevil jumping motorcycles over cars with a disclaimer, but not Cesar! They don't give the man a break.

To the credit of the people on this board, I haven't seen much of that here. I think we're talking about people "out there" who are acting obsessive and hating on him. Blogging about hating him (I think - I want links). People here at least know why they hate him and can say exactly why.

Actually, I think that many of CM's followers hurt him a LOT.  My attitude towards CM is just like my attitude towards any other trainer.  If something rings true I'll give it a shot and if it works, great, if it doesn't, I'll try something else.  The hardest thing for me to get past was the attitude of many of his hardcore supporters.  Once I got past that there is a lot about what he does that makes sense.  Do I disagree with him on some things?  Sure (I think that's the case with nearly every dog trainer I've some across though).  But again, there are many things that I think he is spot on about.

If only a little common sense were employed on both sides of the issue when it comes to trainers, we would all be much happier.  Example: this thread being started.  The point of the original post seems to be to point out that CM is controversial (Duh) and that everyone who does not like him is irrational and obsessive in their criticism (because criticism of training philosophies is so rare that it *only* happens to CM, right?).  Basically, it's a thread meant to slam the people who are slamming a trainer that some other people like--riiiiiiighttt........

The funny thing is that I don't see CM taking this attitude.  Then again he seems like he has enough confidence in his own methods that he doesn't need to go out onto the internet and pick fights.  Nope, he's just out there doin' his thing, explaining why he does what he does for anyone to take or leave, and trainin' dogs.  There's a lesson in there somewhere...... 

FourIsCompany

Anyway, I think the reason people hate him is fairly simple. And it's just my opinion. They disagree with him.They think he's wrong. They think he hurts dogs. Additionally, he's got a forum to speak to and influence many millions of people. That threatens them and their way of thinking.

I hear you, but many people do not use clickers to train their dog, and disagree with much that is claimed about that kind of training, but I have never seen them go after Karen Pryor. There is no vigilante posse after Pryor, on this or any other discursive venue, that I've seen. What would be the point? To do so, would only make the attackers look weak. Is this simply about celebrity and sour grapes?

sillysally

that everyone who does not like him is irrational and obsessive in their criticism (because criticism of training philosophies is so rare that it *only* happens to CM, right?

Actually, I said: "If people simply laid out their arguments and objections, I'd take them more seriously. But the limitless attacking, in which people are willing to trade away their own supposed moral ground ... this kind of hypocrisy I cannot understand."

There are plenty of instances on this forum alone where any mention of leadership or dominance results in Millan bashing, when Millan hadn't even been mentioned! And, as Four mentioned, it's common for people who have never watched or read Millan to weigh in, even with out any actual knowledge!

Again, when people's arguments against Millan and his methods are sound, there's little reason for so much emotionalizing, right? So where is all the emotionalizing and obsessiveness coming from?

CLARIFICATION: I said: "Yeah, but what's in it for the people who are constantly hunting him down, in the manner of obsessed stalker ex-lovers?" I have not said ex-lovers are stalking him ... lol!

CLARIFICATION: I said, "There seems to be a bounty on the head of Cesar Millan. Silly me, I forget who issued it, and what's in the purse for the victor. A little help?" This is metaphoric for the discursive vigilanteism that is observed when people obsessively hunt down and attack a particular person or thought (aka "witch hunt";) IN A DISCURSIVE ENVIRONMENT. I have neither claimed nor implied that people are trying to actually assassinate the actual living man, Cesar Millan.  

sillysally

Actually, I think that many of CM's followers hurt him a LOT.  My attitude towards CM is just like my attitude towards any other trainer.  If something rings true I'll give it a shot and if it works, great, if it doesn't, I'll try something else.  The hardest thing for me to get past was the attitude of many of his hardcore supporters.  Once I got past that there is a lot about what he does that makes sense.  Do I disagree with him on some things?  Sure (I think that's the case with nearly every dog trainer I've some across though).  But again, there are many things that I think he is spot on about.

 For instance many speak out about any use of any collar other than a flat collar and firmly believe that anything other than a flat collar is cruel. Yet I have witnessed people yanking their dogs completely off their feet with a flat collar in a manner that must cause discomfort to the dog, yet I am viewed often as cruel or cave mannish because I have and do use a prong. The fact that I use it rarely, the fact that I would never yank my dog in such a manner regardless of the collar he is wearing is overlooked. They cannot get past the fact that my dog on occasion is wearing and evil and cruel torture device.

 Dog are always bumping into one another and jostling one another. Using physical touch in and of itself is neither wrong nor cruel. Again it is the manner and method by which the physical touch is applied that distinguishes whether or not it is right and correct. I would never advocate hitting striking, kicking or otherwise harming a dog but I get offended when any physical touch is interpreted as wrong.

 So yes hard-core followers may hurt his cause, just as hard core advocates of positive only hurt theirs.

sillysally

My attitude towards CM is just like my attitude towards any other trainer.  If something rings true I'll give it a shot and if it works, great, if it doesn't, I'll try something else. 

I agree.  I have had horses all my life, and learned a long time ago that there is no single "recipe" for success. 

That said, there is a difference between defending your point of view and attacking another's.  I have a serious issue with the subject title of this thread.  I challenge anyone to post the same thread with their own name substituted.

cat0

I challenge anyone to post the same thread with their own name substituted.

I would gladly begin a thread entitled Reward: Ixas_girl (Dead or Alive), but imagine it would be immediately, and rightly, Moderated. I also don't feel that what I have to say has ever been important enough to give anyone cause to want to hunt me down and shut me up. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

In fact, I've often thought it would be interesting if Millan could be convinced to join this forum. The tone of many posts would have to change radically to meet the rules of proper conduct towards fellow posters.

For those who accuse Millan fans of being his own worst enemy, I'd suggest checking out some of his fan sites. They are interesting places full of a wide range of information including health and fitness for dogs, nutrition, clicker training, agility and sports topics, dog psychology, and more. A pretty open minded bunch, I'd say. They are also generally the most internationally diverse and culturally tolerant groups I encounter in the dog world.

When Millan fans and admirers look bad is when they are defensive. Which can be fairly often, in some contexts.

Ixas_girl

In fact, I've often thought it would be interesting if Millan could be convinced to join this forum. The tone of many posts would have to change radically to meet the rules of proper conduct towards fellow posters.

 That would be great would it not?

 Come on Cesar! We know you are out there, you must read these topics!! Chime in please (hugs)

Ixas_girl

cat0

I challenge anyone to post the same thread with their own name substituted.

I would gladly begin a thread entitled Reward: Ixas_girl (Dead or Alive), but imagine it would be immediately, and rightly, Moderated.

Ah, but that's not really your name.

I think I'll bow out of this.  I'm new and obviously not getting it and maybe its an inside joke here or something.

Ixas_girl

I have never seen them go after Karen Pryor.

True... Hmmm... This is indeed interesting. I suppose it's because there's a feeling or opinion that what Cesar is doing could potentially harm the dog, physically and emotionally. The most trouble a clicker in the wrong hands could do is confuse the poor thing.

Ixas_girl

Is this simply about celebrity and sour grapes?

For some, I think that's exactly what it is, but for many, I don't think they really know why they hate him and for most people here, I think it's my first reason above.  

And honestly, Ixas, I didn't  know you were speaking metaphorically. I have been googling for a bounty on Cesar's head! LOL Now, I'm finally understanding your original post. Some of us are just simple folk! Don't forget that!

And I think it's a good question, but the kind of question that may have been better understood in plain speak instead of metaphor.

Ixas_girl

"If people simply laid out their arguments and objections, I'd take them more seriously. But the limitless attacking, in which people are willing to trade away their own supposed moral ground ... this kind of hypocrisy I cannot understand."

I think this is just about different people's personalities. They're not "trading in their moral high ground", they are poking a jab when the opportunity arises. Maybe it's an opportunity to get a laugh or show of support from the other like-minded people in any particular forum. In my experience, I would very likely take a jab at GW Bush under similar circumstances. I try to stay away from it here, but on political forums, if I get a chance to take a jab at GW, many times I will. Just because I have so many issues with the situation he has created. So it's not about lacking morals, it's about being a little bit nasty because they don't like the guy. And that's very human and very normal.

However, it's one thing to poke a little fun. It's quite another to go into a thread where people are having a good discussion and throw a wrench in the works by berating Cesar (for example) and his "followers", as if they're some kind of cult. That's just mean-spirited. I can't explain that and I don't want to waste my time trying. It's not worth it.

sillysally

Basically, it's a thread meant to slam the people who are slamming a trainer that some other people like--riiiiiiighttt.....

I disagree. I think this thread was started to try to understand someone with a different mindset than the OP. I think it's a good thing. It's important that we understand each other and go forward from there instead of repeating the same crap over and over. In my opinion, of course.