Are you a crossover?

Penny is a crossover dog, kind of. I was 13 when I got her and all the methods I was taught were still a little out of date. Thankfully we were past rubbing a dog's nose in their own urine as if that's going to teach them something, but I was taught to correct with leash pops and manhandle my dog into the right position. She was pretty robust about it all and she learnt, but she got bored with obedience class and I could tell she didn't really like this walking around at my leg getting leash pops thing. We quit on formal obedience classes when my mother was trying desperately to handle her new rescue dog, which was a whippet cross. Mum felt she was getting all the wrong advice and not enough attention and generally felt that the classes were doing her dog more harm then good. I didn't care much either way because Penny was doing what she was told, but didn't seem to be enjoying it all anymore than I was. Which is to say, we were both kinda 'meh'.

We tried a few other obedience classes with the same results. Poor Mum was having real troubles and feeling disillusioned about dog training.

I stopped using a choke chain when I was forced to hang my dog for the second time when she was charged by a large and aggressive dog that was off lead. Her instinct was to freeze and crouch as this monster bore down on her with the intent to grab her and shake for all he was worth, but my instinct was to use the lead to reef her out of the way. I pulled her out of his path and bought us the few moments we needed for the owner to grab their dog, but I was scared about what could have happened and decided it was too dangerous to keep using the choke chain. Penny always had walked on a loose leash, but when she pulled the choke chain tight, she tended to stop dead and wait for the tension to release. Without the chain, I've found she's only got better on the leash. Much more relaxed.

Over the years most of my further training was passive. Pen is super cluey and pays attention to everything I say and do. I tend to teach her things by saying the same thing every time she does something. I've never used treats because she's food mad and as soon as treats are involved she gets so excited she doesn't pay any attention to anything I say. Good girl and lots of strokes and ruffles seem just right for her.

Anyway, as I learnt more about animal behaviour from my studies and a whole lot more from working on wild animals, I just didn't see the point in aversive methods. I love animals and I don't want them to be scared around me. I put so much effort into trying not to scare wild animals I'm desperately trying to follow that I guess I transferred the same things to my relationship with domestic animals. When you're trying to work out where birds are nesting for 10 hours a day you simply stop considering deliberately frightening or upsetting an animal. [] And then I got Kit and my whole life turned into an effort to provide the right domestic environment for a wild and flighty hare. That pretty much squashed any residual thoughts I had about aversive methods. If I ever hurt Kit he'll never trust me again. If I frighten him, he punishes ME by refusing to speak to me for days. Again, trying so hard all the time not to frighten a sensitive animal tends to rub off in your dealings with every animal.

My next dog will be clicker trained. I'm a person who is all about being as nice as possible to animals. I get pleasure out of that. I don't get pleasure out of frightening or hurting them. I want them to understand me. The best way to facilitate that is to be nice to them. I've done some pretty amazing things with Kit and it's opened my eyes to the possibilities when using positive reinforcement. I'm currently trying my hand with clicker training on my pet rabbit. It's slow going because she doesn't have a very long attention span, but we're getting there. I like that she likes it. As a rabbit that hated hands near her when I got her, it's nice to see her rushing to my hand every time she sees it lest it hold a raisin. That's what I like to see.

Wow, where do I even start with Giz.  She has been the most unusual dog I have ever had to deal with and yet I still love her.  Puppy training was the easy part, she learned fast and never made me upset over anything.  But once the pain from her hip dysphasia set in a whole new world opened up, never before had I owned a dog that did not get along with other dogs.  I was clueless, unsure, and my emotions rubbed off onto my dog.  My first response was a whole lot of yelling and just keeping her away from other dogs, this may have even increased the problem.  I didn't use painful punishment as she was healing from her surgeries so I didn't want to hurt her any more.  I was at a total loss of what to do and that did not help my dog any.  I basically let my dog get away with anything she wanted, if she wanted to pull on the lead I let her, if she wanted to tear apart shoes I did nothing about it.  I felt sorry for her for the pain she was already in.  She had absolutely no training at all for a while.

I started taking Gizmo to a trainer and found it helpful.  I didn't quite agree with all the methods used but I was happy she was finally starting to come around.  The trainer was a bit gentler with her after I explained to her about the surgeries and why it was difficult for her to do some of the ticks she needed to perform.  I don't think the trainer really understood my dilemma and treated it like any other aggression problem using some force.  My dog learned the commands and listened well but her behavior didn't seem to change much.

My real awakening or crossover to training was when I joined this forum and meet Spiritdog.  She gave me some great material to read and I did read a whole lot.  Now I use a whole lot of +R and treats, I never knew how wonderful treats can be to train a dog.  Gizmo has come a long way and everyday I can see her change.  It wasn't until I could understand what my dog was trying to tell me that I could train her without force.

Yup  cross over trainer.  In fact my one of my most humbling admissions is the fact that I used the management and positive reenforcement approach in my occupation and dealing with students but didnt even consider the transfer of approaches to my dog training.  Reggie my dobe bitch whom I would have sworn had ADD, was my cross over dog.  Nothing I did in the collar correction method made a difference in her.  In fact she had a bald spot on her neck and four trips through beginner classes.  I saw a tape of Patty Russo and then went to her seminar.  It has been different ever since.  Now I still use punishment some times, even unfairly on occassion.  Old habits are hard to break which is why  I work constantly to see those situations coming and prevent that default behavior from kicking in.  The most noticable difference, I now think, how do I change my behavior so the dog can be successful.  I try and keep my ratio at 19 to 1 (positive to punishment) or better.  I am still a work in progress.  Doubt I will move to entirely positive reenforcement since the love of my dog sport life is herding.  The sheep have much higher reenforcement value that I will ever have.  So controling access and occassional correction are still very much a part of  my training in that venue.  It is all error free learning and positive reenforcement in basic training, conformation, rally and obedience.

That's where I am, MRV. Right there with you. I used to work as a counselor to teenagers who were, well, wards of the state, their behaviors and actions had gotten them into that much trouble. I worked as a teacher, too, at the college level. We didn't "force" anything. It was all built around choice and consequence--no touching, etc. Obviously, you can't do that! You could get sued! I subbed grade school, junior high, and high school (whew) and then taught survey classes for two years and it worked fine within my own natural response to life and to situations. This is me--not physical, but consistent and focused. "Oh, you missed the deadline? It was yesterday, not today. Too bad." I've been a manager more times than I've wanted and I like focusing on the problem with the employee, not the employee. "Let's figure this out and keep moving forward."

I took my puppy through a puppy class and it was great. We worked the same way. No touching! None. Let her do it on her own because, as I studied up on animal behaviors, if you push, they push back. And I mean physical pushing, too. If you push them into a sit, they take longer to learn. Any force is met with force. That's why dogs pull.

That class ended--we went to it three times because there was nothing else--and the only other type of class open was this Leadership Class and the ideas sounded fine. They sounded good. That class was quite the "hands on" class. Termed positive training, the class was built on the concept that we show our dogs we're the leaders by showing them how to sit--pushing them into one--and then praising them when they did. That was okay for me. It went against what I had studied, and I found lots and lots of books (thanks to all the research training I've received, I can find about anything I want these days), but I figured it would be fine. My first time with that class went fine, really. I learned to use a choke collar, to put it on correctly (finally) and to give some "gentle" leash pops as we worked.

But, after that, the more advanced classes became more difficult for me to do. I would seriously get worked up with worry over my dog not doing what I hoped so badly she would do. There is nothing worse, for me, as her "leader/Mom" than to watch her do the "puppy push-ups" across the room, desperately trying to show me she will do anything as she watches other dogs "get in trouble" with their handlers. I was the perfect student--I knew I had to raise my voice, move fast, grab her leash and jerk it to the ground to show her I meant Down and I meant it back over there.

We did some 3-minute out-of-sight Stays, too, and she did pretty well on them, for awhile. After that, when I'd hear that she broke, I knew what I had to do and I dreaded it. I would walk into the room where she was standing (of course) and I would have to grab her and quickly push/drag/walk  her back to the spot where she should have been sitting with a sharp "No" while I did it. She would have her happy face on ("Oh, you're here!")  and I would have my angry face on. Like she made me mad. C'mon--I believe that I choose my emotions but I had to show her I was very unhappy.

I understand the concepts, I do, but I coudn't do them because that's not me. It's not natural, it's not fluid (for me) and it's not me.

As a crossover, what I like is what MRV said. I am changing my behavior and training is no longer a dreaded act for me. I love that I can say, "Mmmm, didn't ask for a Down, I asked for a Sit" and see my dog focusing on what I want instead of on what made me mad. I like that I can see, by their faces (now I have two dogs) that we're all trying to figure out what should be taking place. They are actively participating in this figuring-it-out action and I like that. It's not, "What did I do to make you mad?" It's "Oh boy, I guess I need to be doing something else here." And because I've learned to really slow down the process of training/learning, and take it step-by-step, I'm much more successful more quickly. What steps they learned today isn't what they need to go over again tomorrow. They've learned it, mastered it, and are truly ready for more. I like that! It's like we're focusing on the situation together.

Recently, I read some conslusions from the Hormones and Behavior journal about a cross-species study that showed that when the owners are disappointed and mad at their dogs for not performing, cortisol levels hit high levels (in the dogs) and testosterone levels raise in humans (don't mean to be pushing testosterone, it was the point of the article, though). Given that, then, these researches said that there are similarities between domestic violence and the stressors that brings on and animal "miscommunications" and the stressors that also brings on. I found it interesting.

For me, feeling like I have to get ready to show I mean business was definitely holding me back from working the way I needed to be working. For others, that may be fine. But, after piddling around in classes, I know which direction is the natural one for me to follow.

I remember Wesley, and I'm glad to know he's doing so well. It really is all about the dog understanding what the heck we want! Good for you, and I'm glad you didn't give up.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Thanks!!  I swear I sometimes look at him and think how "normal" he has become - and this from a dog that I used to be nervous to have lay near me while I was watching tv because he might jump up and snarl for out of nowhere...  We are still a work in progress, but I feel like we have much better tools now - so we will continue to improve!

Max is the first dog I've ever had that received any real *training* via obedience school - he went twice. I started off with a flat collar for him and on the advice of his trainer who noticed how hard he pulled on walks, got a prong for him.  He's doing much better - it obviously isn't causing him any real pain - and our aim is to someday be able to go back to just the flat collar. I was also raised with the "rub their noses in it and smack them with a newspaper" philosophy, but that never made any sense to me and I never did it that way myself.

Joyce

, "Mmmm, didn't ask for a Down, I asked for a Sit" and see my dog focusing on what I want instead of on what made

 
Believe it or not, I just stepped outside for some of that. With a pocket of treats and quiet resolve to get the behavior I want. Downs, sits, down-stays from increasing distances. Stays and recalls in spite of the distraction the alpha Border Collie barking away. Shadow's eyes are riveted on me and the treat that I hold. And it took a couple of tries. He'd follow me to near the corner where the Border Collie is on the other side of the fence. Sit, stay. I'd walk away and get about 15 feet and he would come with me. So, I turned around and went back. He understood on the third try.
 
+R may take longer than other methods, but it is usually free of stress and fun, and will last longer because of the motivation. Even though it might be called operant conditioning by allowing the dog to earn and find his way to the behavior that gets rewarded, done for long enough and there will be, IMHO, a pavlovian flavor to it. At a later date, you can get that response without a treat in your hand because he always associates obedience with a treat. Simple, endless repitition. Habit. Which shoe do you put on first? You've been doing it all of your life. Habit. "Here", treat, again, and again, and again, habit. I think that's the case with a new puppy and with a rescue dog. Today is new day and everyone starts out the same, as Anne said.

I haven't found that it takes longer.

No, true, Ron, and that's the thing. I used to get confused by it, and being somewhat a softie (but not totally), I used to feel "bad" when I got the weepy eye look. "Oh, give me a treat." But not anymore.
 
And I like that I can laugh (if only to myself) instead of having to "gear up" for some loud talking.
 
I just like myself a lot more. I do. I am really a hands off person and this is the best method for training for me.
 
Besides that, my dogs--small brained though they may be--have long figured out that choke chain means "obey" and non-choke chain means anything goes (until they get grabbed, that is).

When Emma was 18 months old, I decided I wanted to do the Click A Trick class, so I bought a book on clicker training. That day, I took off the choke chain that I'd been walking her, and primed the clicker. We have not turned back.

For a great story, my best friend left, about that time, and went to Korea, for three months. When she came back, she asked what I'd "done to Emma". Emma was a different dog. Most of her aggression had diminished. She is far less edgy and nervous. She doesn't turn around and "sass" me when I ask her to do things, any more. She woudln't think of biting me. She works in the presence or absence of food or the clicker. She *enjoys* training, and working, now. She leaps at the chance to learn something new, and her vocabulary has more than tripled (she'll be three, next week). It's been incredible, for her.

I trained my first dog using a choke collar and praise. I think it took almost three years to put a reliable off-leash heel on that dog. I have since found that using a clicker and rewards you can put a reliable off-leash heel on a dog in less than three months. You can teach a young puppy all of the basic obedience commands in a matter of days using a clicker and rewards. I remember back in the choke collar days you never even started to train the dog until it was practically an adult.

If I beat my dog with a clicker does that make me a Crossover trainer?

No but your obviously a "Pro spanker"!![:@]

Leave how I train my monkey out of this!

Keep it clean folks