Aversive methods

ORIGINAL: richard_dragin

Don't punish or reward your dog for what it is doing, only for what it is thinking.

 
Would you be able to clarify this statment? I'm not entirely sure how you would do that, and how it would work.

Some examples.....
You have a friend over and your dog is sitting next to you. You are petting it (because that is what feels good to us humans) and your friend gets up and the dog lunges and snaps. The dog is thinking they are protecting you and you are reinforcing that thought process, no surprise that it lunged at your friend.

The dog is showing interest in the cat and you are cooing at the dog something like, "noooo, be nice to the kitty..." next thing it is chasing after the cat. As soon as the dog shows interest in the cat is when you need to correct it not when it is in prey drive mode and chasing...then it's too late.

The example from above....your dog is acting upset because you are upset and you try and comfort him. You are reinforcing him being upset even if he doesn't know why you are upset.

Dogs will stare at something and fixate on it. If it's another person or dog it may be because they are trying to figure where they stand in relation to it. That is not the time to give affection and reinforce whatever they may be thinking. If you always call the dog to you to give affection it is doing a submisive act and thinking you are higher up in status and then it is getting rewarded. You are not punishing the dog or dominating it you are just rewarding it for being submisive.

I think I understand what you're trying to say, and perhaps I am biased by my background, but surely it would be simpler to focus on the external behaviours, rather than trying to infer/guess what your dog is thinking?
 Trying to attribute thought/emotional processes to animals runs the risk of anthropomorphising and being way off the mark, IMO.

You are right that we don't want to attribute human emotions to our dogs but none of the examples I gave (which I think are all common scenerios) run that risk. It comes down to not giving affection all the time because as you said we don't always know what they are thinking. We only correct when they are paying attention to something that we don't want them interested in.

We can affect the thought process and change the behavior or we can train them to do something that they will do but not know why. I don't give a sit and stay when I am going out the door, my dog learned very quickly that it is my space and she needs to stay back when I am opening the door. She makes the decision to stay back because she knows that is what I demand of her. There were no treats, no yelling, no praising, I didn't even touch her. It was just two or three days of a look and body language and a hand gesture and she understood what was required.

ORIGINAL: richard_dragin

You are right that we don't want to attribute human emotions to our dogs but none of the examples I gave (which I think are all common scenerios) run that risk. It comes down to not giving affection all the time because as you said we don't always know what they are thinking. We only correct when they are paying attention to something that we don't want them interested in.

We can affect the thought process and change the behavior or we can train them to do something that they will do but not know why. I don't give a sit and stay when I am going out the door, my dog learned very quickly that it is my space and she needs to stay back when I am opening the door. She makes the decision to stay back because she knows that is what I demand of her. There were no treats, no yelling, no praising, I didn't even touch her. It was just two or three days of a look and body language and a hand gesture and she understood what was required.

 
Are you sure that when you're going out the door she knows why she has to stay back (because it is your space?) or just that she's not going out the door until she does?
 
I totally agree about not giving affection to them constantly without getting them to "earn it" first.
 
I think perhaps what you might be trying to get at is that sometimes you don't have to actively teach them behaviours, like waiting at the door. Pocket knows not to jump out the car door as soon as I open it and waits for me to tell her to get out- all without any real training.
 
Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread!
 
Bringing it back on topic ... I think aversive techniques are often unncessary, though sometimes an effective way to stop behaviour (often one or two experiences is enough). I also think there's a difference between using a noise (e.g. a hand clap) to distract a dog from whatever it's doing and get its attention, and using a noise as a punisher.
 

if you're constantly using your loud aversive noise it tends to lose its "emergency effectiveness". Sometimes you NEED to stop your dogs, now, and it's not a training situation, it's a management situation. So if once every five years you find you have to scream NO very loudly your dogs will almost certainly respond by freezing. If you go around screaming NO five times a day, they learn to tune you out.

It's sort of like bashing a popular behaviorist every chance you get. After a while nobody gives your opinion much credence and just tunes you out.

I personally am not a fan of the loud banging things... perhaps it's because I know from first hand experience that they can be misused and, subsequently, rendered useless. And, while Anne's method may be +P, I think we can all recognize the difference between a loud bangy noise and a jerk on a choke chain. 
 
Finally, I agree with the OP. I'd rather teach a nice down-stay than try to come up with various techniques to scare my dog (which are doomed to fail because she's vary observant and will notice a can on the garbage bin lid or a string going to the cupboard). I can reward (and reinforce) the down-stay easier than the scaredy dog. Besides, I've already got a scaredy dog in the first place [&:].
 
Not to go off topic, Richard, but the same point could be made about a certain someone whom just made the comment... I personally like to tune out those whom make such comments unprovoked... of course, then, I'll admit that I am easily provoked so I won't tune them out.  
 
And, of course, mudpuppy will point out a certain "behaviorist's" (yes, I don't think he's one if that's what you're thinking) misgivings if she thinks its in the best interest of the dog(s) in question. I don't think that's bashing in any form, so long as it's civil.
 
To end my post, I don't think this thread had anything to do with the "behaviorist" you so loverly brought up. Derailing posts isn't very nice, is it?
 
 
 
 

Never mind.

Aversives are useful.  My mentor puts it this way - he wants the dog doing something unacceptable to say "What?" when you do something to break his concentration.  So a shout, a step in the dog's direction, or (one memorable occaision) a leash launched in the dog's direction - something to break the behavior.  Then the important thing is that the dog is offered another chance to offer some other behavior.

Like the door thing.  I'd stand at the door (I've just had to teach Curly this today), open the door nice and wide, and when he charges, I'd say, "AH AH!" and shut the door in his face.  Curly goes, "Huh?  What?"  Then I immediately open the door.  Border collies are pretty smart so it will only take a couple of reps for him to figure out that wait is the right answer.  All my dogs know they are not allowed to charge through doors, out of crates, cars, gates, etc - I can open the door at my house or a gate into a field and ten dogs will wait without me going, "Wait, stay, sit, no, leave it, wait, stay"

ORIGINAL: corvus

I go to my dog whenever I like. That's my right as the higher status individual. If I only ever went to her, then yes, maybe that would be a mistake, but I don't. When I want to approach her to pat her, I do. When she approaches me for pats, sometimes I pat her and sometimes I don't. It's my choice because of my higher status. Sometimes when I want to pat her I call her over. Sometimes I sit down on the floor with her and scratch her belly and sometimes I sit down on the floor away from her and call her over to get her belly scratched. As the highest ranking individual, I can dictate the terms of our interactions and do whatever I like. I can approach her to give her affection because I'm very secure in my position and have been for the last 10 years, so I don't need to make a point of it every single time.

Quite frankly, I have no problem with reinforcing her running to sit on her bed when I shout. She does it in the first place because she knows that usually puts an end to the shouting and gets her affection. It gets her affection because it's what I want her to do. She is frightened of shouting because I'm unpredictable when I shout, but she doesn't get the reward of having the shouting stop and the affection begin until she does the desired behaviour, i.e. running and sitting on her bed.

Lastly, it is okay for my dog to be scared. Especially when I blow my top at her and she didn't see it coming. I'd be scared if a higher status individual rained their wrath down on me, too, even if I did see it coming. When my dog is scared, I don't make a fuss of her, but sometimes she needs some reassurance. She has a pathological fear of thunder and fireworks. When she hears big noises like that, I let her inside and leave her to go find a safe place to huddle. She shivers and shakes until it's all over, but I ignore it because I don't want her to think it's a big deal, and I always have ignored it. However, at times when she's so frightened she doesn't want to sit still anymore, I sit with her and she calms down. So in most situations I tell my dog there's nothing to be worried about by ignoring the scary thing, but if she can't cope, I have no problem quietly sitting with her and putting a calming hand on her. If it means she won't race around the house hysterically, then I don't have a problem with it.

Nothing is cut and dried. What is okay for some situations is not for others. When you've been best friends with a dog for 10 years, you get a pretty good feeling for what you should and shouldn't do with her. Penny is a happy, balanced dog and a perfect companion. I have no problems with her whatsoever. Thanks for telling me I'm dealing with her all wrong, but she's currently my oldest friend and I rather think I know her and how to handle her a lot better than anyone else in the world.

This post is so full of contradictions I don't know where to start! I can go to my dog whenever I like? By doing that you are telling her she is the higher status individual, that's how dogs think.  I ignore it when she's scared of thunder and one sentance later you put a calming hand on her? She is my best friend but I unpredictably blow my top at her?

You have created an unstable dog by what you have stated here and are in complete denial. Dogs are pets and should not be treated like friends but like dogs. They are a lot happier with that araingment.

Keep on topic. If you have a desperate need to communicate any issues you have with how I treat my dog, talk to me privately. 

I think I said it all right here.

Richard, You have mail

The reason most people resort to aversives is that they have not, from square one, been knowledgeable enough or willing to, instill appropriate cues to elicit behavior that they want the dog to perform.  Why is it always about correction, and not *prevention*???  If your dog learns "leave it" during puppy class, and you continue to reinforce that lesson, he may not even think to chase the friend out of his chair, because you will have said "leave it" the split second as the guy gets up.  That should focus the dog back on you, not the friend.  And, contrary to popular belief, most dogs aren't protecting their owners, they're protecting themselves LOL, which is pretty sound thinking, given that the owner is usually someone they can't even communicate with!  [sm=lol.gif]
I thought to add this, for the people who say - "What about the dog you didn't get as a puppy?"  When you get a rescue, or an older dog, the dog is immediately thinking about how to "read" you, and what to expect from you.  So, you tell him, right from the beginning, that you are the leader, you will protect him, and there are things you expect from him in the way of appropriate behavior.  I never rescue a dog, but what I am in class with one of my colleagues by the next week, starting my training from square one.