You Don't Understand +R

ORIGINAL: richard_dragin

As I stated before, pain, punishment, cruelty, anger...none of it is appropriate to dealing with dogs and has the opposite effect of  convincing them that we are a good leader to follow. I just don't think that with four options available we should limit ourselves to +R and even those that say they do use other forms as well. I think +R has become as much a marketing tool because it sounds nice and politically correct but doesn't cover all the things people who work under that title do. If you ignore a behavior aren't you using -R?

 
Just to clarify- when you say four options are you referring to +R,-R,+P,-P?
Ignoring a dog when it erforms inappropriate behaviour is actually negative punishment (withdrawal of good things, i.e. attention, to decrease behaviour).
There is a whole history of research that shows that reinforcement is the most effective way to increase desired behaviours, and because positive reinforcement involves the presence of rewards/good things as opposed to the withdrawal of good things (-P), or the introduction  (+P) and withdrawal (-R) of bad things, it is a lot more humane enjoyable for the dog that is being trained, as well as the trainer. JMO. 

ORIGINAL: Vinia
Ignoring a dog when it erforms inappropriate behaviour is actually negative punishment/quote]
 
I've always gone on the thoughts that ignoring the undesired behavior is enforcing the behavior by not correcting it/diverting from it...right or wrong?

Yes, you are right [], though it would depend on what the behaviour (and reinforcement) is. Supposedly an undesirable behaviour is being reinforced for it to keep occurring, e.g. digging a hole is self reinforcing, so ignoring it is not going to do anything in terms of decreasing that behaviour.
 
I think generally, that if you're unable to control how/when/if reinforcement is delivered, then correction/diversion is necessary. Though perhaps there are exceptions to this...

What I was thinking as an example (in my head [8|], so no-one else would have known this) when I wrote that was the example of a dog jumping up, or whining in the crate. In those cases, attention would be acting as the reinforcer, in which case ignoring the dog when it does this would essentially be removing the reinforcement, making it -P. Sorry! I should have been more clear.
 
 
 
 

I stand corrected -P.

Ok  specific detailed advice on a training approach.
 
First teach a number of behaviors including position commands and some simple tricks, I always teach touch.  If you want that too, mention so in a reply or send me a PM>
 
Once the behaviors mentioned above have been trained and will reliably occur in 4 different locations (your house, someone else's house, an open area when no dogs are presented, a school yard with minimal traffic at the time of practice), you are ready to start training for the aggression related behaviors.  These are your incompatable and other behaviors for your differential reenforcement.
 
The next thing you need to know is the data collection strategy to determine when to change the criteria for the dog.  I use the rule of 8.  The dog must repeat the behavior on command 8 of 10 times in 8 of 10 different training sessions in 4 of 5 training locations.  This is an adaptation of the learning for mastery.
 
Establish a baseline.  Select 3 locations where your dog has trouble and you know there will be problematic distractions.  Plan to go to each of those places three days in a row.  You are looking to establish the distance at which your dog can follow the commands successfully.  To do so,  measure out some distances without your dog, just use a stride.  Count out the number of strides from your best guess starting point to the major location of the high level distractions.  You may wish in invest in some signal or marker flags used for construction to provide a visual cue for yourself.  Once you have the distances set in your head. Get your dog, get your reenforcers, get a notebook and go establish your base line.  Define the situation (how many people and dogs etc) and find out how close you can get to the distractors before the dog's behavior changes.  Look for subtle changes like muscle tension, change in pace or in the movement of the legs during the walking (like stalking behavior), noise, hackles etc.
 
Now if you are interested in the rest, just post a reply.  I am running out of time this AM got to get to work so I can pay for the dog stuff []

ORIGINAL: eley

here we go, here's the main question, and it's more of a semantics question than an actual training question. When we discuss +R within this thread...are we talking about the training philosophy i.e. clicker training, operant conditioning or whatever other name it has, or, are we talking about using +R exclusively and no -R, -P and +P?

The way I understand it from a non-pro point of view, and I've said this before, is that EVEN purely possitive methods use -R, and some -P, just no +P. And it is the absense of +P that makes a method purely possitive, again, context, here possitive means "good", not "add".

So, does using a so called "purely possitve method", I guess it depends on the dog, but GENERALLY speaking, I don't see why it wouldn't, just like any other thing, it's probably not a "one size fits all" solution. Does using +R (in the operant conditionin sense of the word) ONLY work? I highly doubt it, mostly because even if you're ignoring the dog for not giving you the correct behavior you're adding -P into the mix (correct me if i'm wrong on the ignoring issue).

I guess what's important at the end of the day s that you use whatever method works for you and your dog, always starting with the "mildest" approach, if that doesn't work, try something else, but the key is to keep an open mind, mostly to thing you don't understand.

+R in the vernacular usually applies to trainers who attempt to use dog-friendly training that is based upon scientific principles of learning and motivation.  Have I ever used a punisher?  Sure.  Do I start every dog giving it the benefit of the doubt and trying to reward behaviors that I wish to increase or have the dog repeat?  Absolutely. 
I do not find it helpful, for a pulling dog, to go immediately to the most painful device, if the handler is able to follow a training protocol and use something milder for the daily potty walk.  Also, it is important, if you will be using a stronger device, to know how it acts on the dog's body, and why and how you are using it.  You must understand that all such devices do cause pain - otherwise they wouldn't work.  So, it's really all about whether you want the "quick fix", or you want to have a dog that willingly stays by your side, even if you must work at it over time.  Puppy owners take note: if you allow your pup to pull, and you follow him, you are creating a pulling dog.  The time to start leash training is from the git-go.  It's much harder to train a 4-5 month old pup who now has the strength to make the walk very unpleasant indeed.  Some of my clients just don't care to put in the time and effort, they just want the problem solved.  So, the first option might be an Easy Walk or Sense-ation harness, or the Gentle Leader or Halti head collar.  I have put prongs on dogs, but I will try to get the handler to accept the EW first, since, once they do, most of them love it.   I really don't see the point of going right to correction before you attempt to teach by reward.  Sure, you might sometime have to break up a fight with noise, or you might have to pull a dog away from a poison mushroom if he develops selective hearing and doesn't "leave it", but if you are truly training correctly, with a dog of even average intelligence, such instances should be rare.  And, frankly, most of them are smarter than humans give them credit for.

Mrv, are you a professional dog trainer?  I have been here only a short time but this is the first time some one has provided details and specifics.  I am so relunctant, not relunctant, frightened to deal with aggression in a public setting.  And for Sassy she has to be close in order to trigger the behavior.  Even though Sassy was ok with the family dog on a home visit this weekend I know they declined to adopt her because of this issue.  Do not think I am lazy in wanting to train Sassy but I have time restrictions (especially dealing with Marvin).   Since your description of the training sounds very regimented I was thinking of using one of those doggie boot camps where this issue can be addressed specifically.  I live in the Chicago area and would appreciate a facility recommendation that uses the positive reinforcementl.
 
For the OP, sorry for the distraction to the subject.

ORIGINAL: mrv

.......The next thing you need to know is the data collection strategy to determine when to change the criteria for the dog.  I use the rule of 8.  The dog must repeat the behavior on command 8 of 10 times in 8 of 10 different training sessions in 4 of 5 training locations.  This is an adaptation of the learning for mastery........

And now back to reality......

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Some of my clients just don't care to put in the time and effort, they just want the problem solved.

And somewhere in the middle is the real answer. Whatever you want to call it "Positive only" or "Cesar's methods" or hopefully a mixture of what really works for you and your dog, without a big debate over semantics, the solution is in the owners putting forth the effort. We create or excacerbate most of the problems with our dogs and we can solve them also.

Correct me if I am wrong (like I need to ask) but the Positive only crowd will probably agree that too much affection given at the wrong times is a root cause of many of our problems. That is the basis for what many people from "the other side" are preaching as well.

I believe Spiritdogs already referred to the fact many folks with aggressive dogs really dont have the time, skill or williness to implement a training program that will change the dogs behavior.  The outline I provided was in response to a previous post asking for specific examples on how one might start to work on changing aggressive behavior in a dog.  I wrote the example for a dog that shows aggression to other dogs or in unfamilar or active situations.  Yup is is hard,  question is, do you (the owner of an aggressive dog) care enough to invest the time and energy to change behavior.  If you dont take data, you will in all likelihood become very discouraged or jump steps which will maintain the behavior and potentially make it worse.
 
As to your comment, behavior is the product of reenforcement history, plan and simple (not).

Positive only crowd will probably agree that too much affection given at the wrong times is a root cause of many of our problems. That is the basis for what many people from "the other side" are preaching as well.

 
no, I disagree. Most puppies I see raised by "normal folks" are completely ignored except when they misbehave, and then they get attention. Guess what puppies desire most- attention. If they can't get good attention, then they happily accept "bad attention". So they misbehave more and more often just to get attention. This is not affection these puppies are getting. Improper reinforcement/response to the dog's behavior perhaps.
 
Actually I think the root of most people's dog problems is failure to invest sufficient time in socializing and exercising the dog. How many puppies nowadays spend their oh so important first six months isolated from other dogs and the world in someone's backyard?  These under-socialized dogs are the ones that tend to become dog aggressive and fear biters as they get older. How many dogs get sufficient exercise nowadays-- almost none, I'd say. If your dog is so bored and so under-exercised he can't even think you can't expect him to be well-behaved.

Trying to understand different training methods can be daunting and executing a training method even harder.   There are methods that are more effective under certain circumstances than others. Things to take into consideration when choosing the most effective method for you and your dog include: your personality, your dog's personality, your goals, your abilities as a trainer, and your experience as a trainer.  
 
You#%92re trying to understand what may work with you and your dog and I commend you for wanting to work this out.  I would suggest you educated yourself on the different methods starting with positive reinforcement and then find a trainer that can help you executed a training program.  Remember, A good trainer has several methods under their belt and helps you figure out which ones work best with your dog.  By going to a training class and exposing your dog to other dogs your trainer will be able to observe and help work through it.  Good luck.

This thread reads great on a professional level but please keep in mind when composing your responses there are many owners reading who might not understand what the abreviations are.
 
Good discussions!

For richard - it's not a problem to give your dog too much affection, *but* you must not do so when he is performing a behavior you don't want repeated (provided he considers your kissy face and huggy dog activities a positive reinforcer).
The problem I have with "the other side", as you put it, is that they operate from the perspective that if you don't "correct" a dog, you can't get it to behave.  I operate from the perspective that if you can find what motivates the dog, and use it to reward desired behaviors, you can.  Example: Sioux hates tugging, and would never consider that a reward - but she loves liver treats and willingly learns any new behavior if she is paid with those (keep in mind, she is food motivated, but not food dependent).  Sequoyah is fine with treats, but if you *really* want her to learn fast, take out the f-r-i-s-b-e-e and toss that when she's doing the right behavior.  She will often learn on one repetition just to get that darn frisbee tossed.  Some dogs are hard to motivate, but there is usually something they want.  Even if it's just to go out a door. 

DPU, my experience has been that "doggy boot camps" may use methods I prefer not to see used on most pets.  Better idea might be to attend a good class, or take some private classes from a local trainer who uses methods you believe to be humane for your dog.  Reputable trainers will let you sit in on a class without your dog to observe.
www.clickertraining.com and www.apdt.com have trainer listings.

No I am not a professional dog trainer.  I am however a school psychologist trained in applied behavior analysis and use those skills to teach behaviors to students, parents and teachers.  I teach dog obedience for local clubs as a volunteer.  Unfortunately  I have no recommendations available in the Chicago area.  I do have belgian friends in the area and could check further if you would like.  Board and train is very expensive and training class would be preferred in my opinion.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

For richard - it's not a problem to give your dog too much affection, *but* you must not do so when he is performing a behavior you don't want repeated (provided he considers your kissy face and huggy dog activities a positive reinforcer).

What about approaching the dog to give affection when it is sitting in it's sleeping area? How about when you are watching TV and the dog is staring at the cat and you are stroking the dog (because it relaxes you)? What is your take on situations like those?

The problem I have with "the other side", as you put it, is that they operate from the perspective that if you don't "correct" a dog, you can't get it to behave.

And the problem I have with the +R community is that whenever they hear the word "correction" they imediatley scream cruelty and violence and that any correction breaks a bond of trust with the dog. Those are pretty knee jerk reactions, probably learned through being rewarded for all the warm and fuzzies for talking to each other about +R training I think most problem behaviors can be resolved through leadership, discipline and affection at the right times. It is sure working for my two Pit rescues.

+R obviously works to increase wanted and decrease unwanted behaviors but so does leadership with small corrections. The black and white reactions are a bit tiresome.