prong?

I've never used the prong on a dog at 4 months, but that is when I heard it was ok to use them. In any case, the dog is 6 months now, so it should be ok.

And I agree that the prong is self correcting, when they are on a leash. You could also use it around the house if the dog needs to be watched, and if they do something wrong, then you could correct with the collar on, right? It would be helpful in correcting other behaviors, I think. I guess that is the way I see it.

I honestly don't know.  I've never used a prong for anything other than an assist in walking lessons and I'd not want to leave one on when not in use with a leash.  They can be dangerous
 
Honestly, there are a lot better and safer ways to correct your dog without inflicting corrections around the house with a prong collar.

THe problem with most uses of the prong collar for correction is the message is not recieved by the dog. Training should be called communication. the term is more appropriate. I have been all the board when it comes to training. my first stint was the old heavy handed "traditional" method. lots of correction, voice praise and that's about it.
I then went to pure positive. both produce mediocre results. I then met a man whom had amazing OB and I was intrigues he used a method that employed correction, but without pain. The secret he had was, he was able to first communicate the idea of reward and discpline first. teaching the dog what both meant. He used prong collars. his method which if you choose to employ has worked marvels. it takes time and some thought but works. it is not a simple 5 minute program. but it works. first when ever he did someting he had already chosen his methods befroe starting. like using a prong collar. I will use going for a walk as example. he chose to use treats and a prong collar, and flat collar to walk the dog. he attached the leash the to the flat collar and a shorter leash to th eprong collar. he would walk and make it a hapy experince not wrrying about pulling at first. just teaching what the collars meant. at first he would pull the prong in light "taps" tap tap tap on the prong. (this can be done on a pup) watching the dog, he did not want to see any signs of aviodance or pain. he was teaching the taps were not bad. he would even feed the dog and tap the collar. the point was to create a good assiociation with the collar and not a bad one. after all a walk is supposed to be fun. then when the pup got older. he like to wait till th edog was about a year old. this was to ensure the dog was more mature both physically and emotionaly.he did not want to casue truama in any way. after a year, on the walks he then would begin to tap the collar till the dog it what he was looking for. the tapping would stop and then he would give a marker, like "okay" or "yes" VERY IMPORATANT he then would reach, not while saying okay but after reach for a treat. feeding the dog. the marker marked the good behavior and he the rewrded it. the taps were like a no no or ah ah. more than a STOP FRIGGIN PULLING. the dogs clearly understood the correction and no harm was inflicted on the dog. The method he later than told me was devised by a man named bart ballone. and is called NE PO PO. negative for the leash pops or NE. and PO for the leash pops stopping or positive and positve for the treat or PO. 2 positves and for 1 negative.

You're right, I would agree that if you don't need to use the prong for more than walking, I wouldn't. I've never had it on my dogs around the house or anything. Maybe if the dog had major behavior problems it could be helpful for correcting that, but my voice is mainly what I use...no problems from my dogs, really.[]

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I absolutely agree with Anne on the Easy Walk harness and I agree with Mic not before the age of 6 months. And I don't agree with using ANY leash corrections on a dog of any age. A prong is self correcting.

I'm not sure that I necessarily agree with that. I have seen dogs that just pull and pull on the prong. With some dogs I think that they are self-correcting, but with more pain tolerant dogs, the handlers assume they are self correcting and therefore allow the dog to "correct" themselves by leeeeaaaaannnning on the prong, thus eventually causing desensitisation. However, when these same dogs are given a quick correction with the prong, they will back off of it rather than lean. Actually, all the dogs that I have seen do this are pits, so I'm sure the high pain tolerance has something to do with it.

I can't speak to this, but I'm thinking my shepherds have a pretty high pain tolerance, PLUS plenty of fur to protect their necks.  Mic condones corrections so that they KNOW that they have displeased you......I'm too much of a softie I think.

Yeah, there is one example that REALLY stands out in my mind. I was on a pit bull walk sponsered by a training center in Chicago. One of the participents had a little black female that she had on a prong. the dog spent the whole walk DRAGGING her owner, with the prong. It seemed as if it had been happening for a while as the hair was rubbed off her neck and during the walk she pulled so hard that she actually started to bleed from the area under the prong. On the rare occasion that the owner DID correct the dog the dog immediately started walking on a loose leash, but then she would start pulling and leaning again. My bosses old pit would lean on a prong like nobody's business.

Sally pretty much has an idea of what is expected of her with the prong by now, and only VERY rarely do I have to correct her.

I would disagree that a prong collar is completely "self-correcting".  The owner must KNOW how to use a prong collar for it to be beneficial for the owner and the dog.  First of all, the collar must be fitted right, so it's right underneath a dog's neck.  All too often people get prong collars that are too big and hanging loose infront of the dog's chest.  A quick search on google will get you images on the correct placement of a prong collar.

We started using a prong collar at around 6 months on our gsd pup to help in teaching him heel.  We used to use a choke collar, but he would literally choke himself to death on that thing before agreeing to walk properly.  Now he's a lot better at walking, and would walk at my side and adjust his own pace to match mine.

I would never leave the collar on him when he's at home.  It just seems extremely burdensome and a safety hazzard for the dog.

With a SMART dog, the prong can be totally self correcting.  I would rather tell people to NOT issue a correction with a prong than to have them injure the dog in their overzealous attempts to  "fix it fast".
 
As for placement, well, that's a bone of contention.  The upper part of the neck is by far the most sensitive.  Which is why I will NOT put a prong there, but rather apply it where the flat collar normally goes.  I had great success with my oldest shepherd, following my trainers placement and no corrections recommendation.

Go here for how to fit a prong collar.
[linkhttp://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm]http://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm[/link]

I strongly disagree.  That placement will inflict maximum pain.  not a little discomfort, but real pain.

OK! tell Ed Frawley that. One of the top dog trainer and gsd breeders in america.

I've heard you're really supposed to have the prong collar and the choke chain at the top of the neck, the reason being that it's the most sensetive and will make a more effective correction apparently. But when I use either the prong collar or the choke collar I always have it where the collar usually goes,down on the neck, as Glenmar said. I don't think the collar needs to be high on the neck; since works the other way ( at least for me!). The only time I've really seen someone have the collar way on the top is for dog shows, conformation, where they have the show collars that way, and I don't have a problem with that, of course. But as I said, I agree that the prong collar doesn't really need to be high on the dog's neck. 

Then you must not be doing it right.

If you goal is to get the most pain per pull, then by all means place the prong high up on the neck.  If your goal  is to teach your dog to walk nicely without ripping your arm off then put the prong where I was shown to put it, in the place of the flat collar.
 
I generally avoid aversives.  With Thor, it became use a prong or forget EVER taking him for a walk.  DH couldn't even handle him, and I have compromised upper body strength and less weight and Thor could literally pull me off my feet.  We tried EVERYTHING.  We worked HARD on leash manners, but he's big and he's strong and I flat out couldn't handle him and if the purpose of the walk is for HIS enjoyment, and he wasn't getting many because I HATED being dragged along and hurt........
 
I had a trainer work with me on this.  She showed me placement and she showed me how to use the prong without injurying my dog.  We've had this discussion before.  The prong placed in what is the "traditionally accepted" place, will cause maximum pain.  The prong placed where I was shown to place it, will cause discomfort and stop the pulling much more effectively than HURTING my dog.
 
For you to say "then you must not be doing it right", frankly is a bit rude.  If it WORKS for me, it isn't wrong.  But then, it was sooo wrong that we don't even need to use it anymore.  Ed Frawley can place a prong any place HE wants to place it.  For me to use any aversive, I'm gonna use it in the LEAST painful manner possible.