please tell me it gets easier (long, please help)

This is what I did to retrain a puller....
 
I worked on heel, off lead in the house, hallway and garden first with the clicker, similar to how ron describes.  Getting an auti-sit and a solid "watch me" at this point is also REALLY helpful. 
 
Then I sort of combined this with the walk - so, normal training sesh, but I attached the lead and let the dog drag it while we trained.  Then I picked up the end and put it in my pocket and carrying on the session.  Walked to the door and got a sit.  Repeat a couple of times.... stop for a play break.  Then back to it, this time building up to walking out of the door and getting another sit while I close it behind me.  Walking a few paces.  Turning round and going back in the house.  Maybe another break time (recess?)  Then get the clicker back out and do it again, this time going a bit further, maybe as far as the gate.  And back again....
 
At the time we had 2 dogs, so it meant sep. walks for a little while.  And the walks were short, but the exhaustive aspect of the clicker training made up for that for the short time it was necessary.  The puller was a bully breed.... STRONG and DETERMINED!  The guy I was with was thinking of using a prong, and I would have gone with that if this approach hadn't worked (his pulling was THAT BAD), but it did work.  We kind of sneaked into "going for a walk" without the dog realising it at first. 
 
After a few days, we were getting halfway down the street and I was starting to relax the rules a little.... it was OK for his attention to wander a little or for him to move a little behind or in front of me, provided the lead stayed slack.  If I saw a "trigger" I got him back into "heel" and "watch me" and kept the distance as great as possible.  I aimed to end it and head home before his concentration lapsed and he started pulling and we just went a bit further each time. 

There is really nothing that I can add. I think you will do fine with patience and shorter training sessions as has been suggested.

 I just want to offer my support in what you are trying to accomplish.

very, very helpful advice here.  thank you all very much.  as you saw in my first post, i was ready to hang up the prong, and i still am, but i do understand it's value to me as a managment tool.  i saw the author talking about managment, but i didn't make the connection.  i guess you guys get a "jackpot"[]  my main concern was that the prong would be counterproductive.  now i see it as a useful temporary managment tool.
 
this has been very helpful.  i was feeling like a bit of a failure and i feel better now.
 
about the marking:  if i continue to reward her for peeing outside like she's supposed to, do you think i can get her to stop marking?  i would like to add i find it strange that she would pee where she sleeps, and that's the only place she does it.  sleeping places.... and that i've only actually SEEN her do it once- normally she does it when nobody's around, so i don't know if i think it's to get "attention" even if it's negative attention.  and, to be honest, i have NEVER disciplined her for this.  never.  my husband, however, has.  i've never seen him do it, but i know he has.  i cannot get through his head how wrong that is....

You said you caught her doing this to her new bed.  Did she do it to her old bed also?

Do you think switching back to the old bed may help?

Or what if you fed her close by the bed?  I think I have heard that dogs won't pee where they eat.

I don't know, I am clueless.  Just trying to throw some stuff out there for you.

about the marking: if i continue to reward her for peeing outside like she's supposed to, do you think i can get her to stop marking? i would like to add i find it strange that she would pee where she sleeps, and that's the only place she does it. sleeping places.... and that i've only actually SEEN her do it once- normally she does it when nobody's around, so i don't know if i think it's to get "attention" even if it's negative attention. and, to be honest, i have NEVER disciplined her for this. never. my husband, however, has. i've never seen him do it, but i know he has. i cannot get through his head how wrong that is....

Rewarding for peeing outside is for housebreaking... and housebreaking is not the issue here as far as I can tell. The motives for the two are different, so you need to approach marking differently.

Dogs mark what's valuable for them, and what they *think* they are capable of defending. So, a confident dog might mark his own neighborhood, and everything around, and doggy park poles - that's because he feels confident he can defend it. A less confident dog might only mark his neighborhood, only his yard, or only his house, or only his bed. Rosie might not be confident that the spot is hers to keep, and she feels the need to claim it by marking. This luck of confidence might be situational, it can relate to her relationship with your other dog, or your husband. Do you feel like there is a competition on who is the top dog between them?
To give her that stability back, you might need to show her that the bed is yours, and she doesn't need to defend it. When you're not home, take the bed away from her. Supervise her otherwise, and as soon as she gets in the marking mode, tell her to get off, or clap - whatever works. Does she know the OFF command?

How did your husband punish her? Has she ever had submissive urination?

interesting.... i  have really always wondered who was really "top dog" between the two of them, and i really can't tell.  i would lean towards varitek because he tends to ignore most of what she does, while she will push into what he's doing and try to take over.  he never reacts, just finds something else to do.  if we're walking and she stops to sniff, he just keeps going, but if HE stops to sniff, she's all over it.  she will stand over the ball like she's guarding it, but and will "protect" it from other dogs, but surrenders it to me immediately.  when i say protect i mean she gives a *look* before the other dog's get close and they invariably walk away.  varitek will surrender a toy to her, but it seems to me that he just doesn't care that much.. .. he's like that with all dogs.  his attitude seems to be, "i know i could kick your butt in a heartbeat but you bore me."  even after multiple attacks, he very rarely seems threatened by any dog, regardless of the behavior they demonstrate.  he just trots off like nothing's happening.

anyway, i think she *might* have peed in her crate but i'm not sure.  i agree with what you're saying about confidence.  if i take the bed away, though, do you think she'll start marking the furniture?
 
yes, both of the dogs have an "off" command that we use for furniture.

yes, she has submissive peed before.  not for me, though.  she just rolls over for me.  i don't know how my husband punished her because when i found out he did it, i refused to talk to him for 2 days.  i wasn't there, but i think i can say with fair certainty that he just hollered at her.  but he's really loud.  it took me a year to make him understand it was TOO LATE to punish when you came home.  he genuinely thinks the dogs know what they've done is wrong and argues if they're smart enough to be communicated with through training, and can make choices, then they're capable of choosing not to destroy the couch. 

my husband and i have an understanding.  if he ever punished the dogs in a physical way, i will pack my stuff and leave that minute and take the dogs with me.  no if's ands or buts about it.

it has occured to me that our disagreement over philosophy has manifested itself in some of our behavior issues......

I dont know why you think the prong collar is "bad", or "not popular", thats a great tool for people like you and if it helps you to have your dogs under control then is the perfect tool for you
 
I have always said that the technique is more important than the tool, you could use a 35 cents rope if you know the right technique, now, prongs are not bad at all and here is why:

I have here a link that explains that a regular flat collar could damage the dog's neck more than a prong or chain collar, this explanation was not made by a regular guy but by an engineer that explains what is happening at the mechanical level:

“When a dog is on a static collar and pulls, there will be a gap at the back of the neck between the collar and the dog's flesh.  This means that all of his force is being distributed across the front of the neck.  With a chain training collar there is no such gap.  The force is distributed around the entire circumference of the dog's neck. Pressure is the measure of force over area (pounds per square inch).  Equal force over a smaller area means greater pressure.   Same force over a greater area means less pressure.  The so-called choke collar actually puts LESS pressure on the dog's trachea because the force of the dog pulling is spread out rather than being isolated directly on the front of the neck.”

[linkhttp://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/What_collar.html]http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/What_collar.html[/link]
 
So as you can see you could be even helping the dog by getting a prong, if you dont like it then just change it, this is only to help you see that prong collars are not bad at all

if i take the bed away, though, do you think she'll start marking the furniture?

I don't know. But, if the couch is yours, and you show her that, she wouldn't feel the need to defend it. You don't need to plunge in a couch growling like a beast to show her that you own it, you just need to tell her what to do - it doesn't matter what: COUCH (a command I use for 'let's cuddle'), get off, move, etc. If you own it, you call the shots.

it took me a year to make him understand it was TOO LATE to punish when you came home... if they're smart enough to be communicated with through training, and can make choices, then they're capable of choosing not to destroy the couch.

Ha-ha. How do dogs know that a couch is not a chew toy? The shape of it doesn't tell them anything about it being holy and untouchable...

it has occured to me that our disagreement over philosophy has manifested itself in some of our behavior issues......

You mean between you and your husband? I think dogs see unbalance in a family/pack, especially if it stems from yours and your husband's silent war over training philosophies - this has a direct impact on them. I even think that that whole fact that you all of a sudden changed your tactic is a sign that you're not sure how to do deal with the problem. Which is fine for us, humans - we are learning, but to some dogs that's weakness. You need to slowly ease that in.
Sometimes, issues that dogs have spill onto other areas... personal family issues as well. That's one of the things I like about dogs - they remind us about balance and being honest to ourselves.
Every dog needs a different kind of leader. My assumption of course, is that every dog needs one in the first place. They all need their different needs fulfilled, and, not all natural born "leaders" are capable of being equally satisfying to all dogs. That's good news. That just tells you that for them, to find you as a source of their stability, you just need to listen to them and respond, and tell them what to do once in a while for the sake of reinforcing the idea that you'll take care of things. So, basically, I see marking as a broader issue...

If she pees while no one is around, and it's not in response to human voice, etc., then I don't think it's submissive urination - it's marking. It does tell me a little about her personality and that her confidence level needs to be lifted up a bit.

preventing unwanted behaviours from happening between training so your dog can't build a reinforcement history).

 
You seem to have a habit of hitting the nail on the head.
 
I think part of what has made Shadow more calm in public is because I've quit walking in the places where loose, untrained, rude dogs are defending their 4 acres of town. That is, every dog meeting now does not have to start of with a confrontation. Therefore, the habit of getting "geared up" to defend is not necessary.
 

Perfect, Ron and everyone else. If I've learned nothing but this then I've learned a valuable thing--don't let them keep doing that which you don't want them to do at all.
 
Manage manage manage until they can control themselves.
 
Oh, and train them in the meantime.

espencer--it's not bad advice, but if you don't want to use the prong for the rest of the dog's live, you have to be training in the meantime, true?
 
(I'm sure we're on the same page here)

well, my take is, if your dog is peeing in the house, the dog either has a medical issue or is not housebroken. Housebroken dogs don't mark in the house. So take your dog's bed away and go back to housebreaking 101, which is constant supervision and/or confinement.

You seem to have a habit of hitting the nail on the head.

I think part of what has made Shadow more calm in public is because I've quit walking in the places where loose, untrained, rude dogs are defending their 4 acres of town. That is, every dog meeting now does not have to start of with a confrontation. Therefore, the habit of getting "geared up" to defend is not necessary.

 
 
Gosh, well thanks. [] I always feel like I have more of a habit to go on, and on, and onnnnnnnn.......lol....that I can never write things as eloquently as I have them in my head. But glad to see somebody thinks it makes sense!
 
Kim

ORIGINAL: nfowler

espencer--it's not bad advice, but if you don't want to use the prong for the rest of the dog's live, you have to be training in the meantime, true?

(I'm sure we're on the same page here)

 
True, the suddenly change (not using the prong collar at all) is complicating the issue, if is a gradual thing the the OP would have a easier transition, like i said, the technique matters more than the tool and untill the OP gets good with the technique the prong seems to be the only help for her, after that she can throw the prong to the trash []

it's not so much that i think the prong is "bad".  it has saved me a lot of rope burn and sore muscles.  there are a few things going on here:  one is that i would like to feel like i'm treating my dog with respect, and the prong is very reactionary.  the other is that a dog wearing a prong collar projects a very negative image.  i have enough problems with "image" as it is.  people see a prong collar and assume that i'm using it to reign in an aggressive dog, which i'm not, but first impressions rule.  also, the "ideal state" is a loose leash walk without the need for correction.  in my case, i feel i have "managed" and not effectively trained.  because i believe my dog CAN learn to walk without it, i would like to do everything i can to move away from it.
 
and mudpuppy i also thought that housebroken dogs didn't mark in the house.  that's why i'm wondering if using the clicker to housebreak would stop it.  but there definitely seems to be conflicting philosophies on this issue.  i will be frank:  i don't know what to do.  at this point, i am treating her as if she's not housebroken and click-n-treating every time she goes where she's supposed to because i'm not sure where to go from here.