Clicker Beware

I have a question about what is considered physical punishment. What if you are teaching a dog not to jump, and if doesn't off on cue, would it considered punishemnt to lightly toss a bean bag at the dog? MY trainer considers it as an aversive.

Others more qualified than I am can correct me, so to speak. An aversive, correction, or +P, is an applied stimulus that is introduced to stop a behavior. Even a clicker or whistle can be an aversive if the dog is trained to stop doing whatever it is doing at that sound. Or, if you toss a wet towel on a dog (certainly not painful though maybe distracting) and the end result is that the dog stopped the behavior, then it is an aversive. If you step into a dog (step so that you move them from their stance, thereby taking the lead position for that instance), it is, to me, an aversive. Same with body blocking, wherein, you physically get between them and whatever to get their attention. Often, though, correction is linked with leash pops, hand bites, and even scruffs.
 
I could be wrong but I think of +P has having several levels, from tugging the leash to produce a down to actually hanging a dog to shooting the dog.

Punishment in the technical sense, is anything that causes a behavior to decrease. Positive means it's applied, rather than a stimlus taken away. So if the bean bag stops the dog from jumping, that's P+ - or what is often simply called "punishment" or "aversive" for shorthand. Since there's also negative punishment (P-, stimlus removed, like "be a tree" to stop forging), but P- is often not included in what some trainers mean by punishment, it can be confusing. [] ETA: My dogs would actually start jumping more to get the bean bag tossed, so it would be R+ in that case. Hee hee.

On the original topic, I can remember being highly disappointed when I discovered that a trainer who claimed to be a clicker herding trainer, actually used big time P+ when the dog actually got into the round pen with the stock. More so than my highly traditional mentor, in fact, who rarely even carries a stick/paddle/whip or other "tool," or long lines, or anything else for that matter. The "clicker trainer" was chasing the dogs around with a full sized garden rake and even swatting them on the butts with it! []

I know the dogs weren't really hurt and I'm not saying there's anything intrinsically wrong with the approach - I was picturing the hapless souls who show up for a "clicker training clinic" and are introduced to Mr. Garden Rake. I'd rather be up front and say, "We're going to make this as upbeat an experience for you and your dog, as possible, but you have to remember that first and foremost we are caretakers of sheep, and the sheep come first. I'd rather hit your dog and have him learn not to hurt sheep, than muck around with your dog's finer feelings, while my sheep are lying bleeding on the ground."

There are some basically useless aversives (in the common sense) I'm trying to weed out of my repertoire:

Screaming in any form - I'm trying to come up with an authoritative shout instead, deepening my voice rather than shrieking like a bean sidhe. Good luck on that - my normal speaking voice sounds like Minnie Mouse and my singing voice is well into the upper first soprano range.

Stepping into the dog's space at any time. I've learned this makes the dog so uncomfortable they stop thinking about what's going on and only how to increase the space again. Dogs just don't don't don't don't do this to each other unless they are whacked out insane dogs that wear kick me signs.

I've forgotten the term - moving the dog where I want it - pushing, pulling, dragging, repositioning. I'm trying to think of ways to make what they are doing that's not acceptable, difficult, and what is desired (or anything else), easy.

Blocking. I'd rather have the dog choose to stop if possible. Blocking is starting to feel to me like I'm taking away too many choices.

It's an uphill battle. It's odd that we hold on to these things so long with zero results, but that's a human for you - we have the power of rationalization to fight against the power of extinguishment. []

I've forgotten the term - moving the dog where I want it - pushing, pulling, dragging, repositioning. I'm trying to think of ways to make what they are doing that's not acceptable, difficult, and what is desired (or anything else), easy.

 
I believe you are looking for the term Molding.

punishment is anything that stops a behavior from occurring,,, what is punishment to one organism may not be punishment to another.  Example:  a spray bottle for barking at a chi and a spray bottle for barking with a lab.  Highly likely to be aversive to the chi but not so the lab  (of course that is variable within breeds)
 
Punishment is just like reinforcement,,, it is only defined by the impact it has on behavior.  So in this case, you need to observe what happened after the throw, then determine what is at work.