Clicker Beware

I've heard about people using "bonkers" with their dogs, which to me might as well be throw-chains or bags full of marbles or cans filled with pennies. All different versions of the same strategy.

Anyway, that's just another example of [linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/642]training with a clicker, as opposed to Clicker Training[/link] capital-C-capital-T.

I've seem someone handling a 6 mo puppy on a fursaver chain. The puppy didn't down, so the handler slammed it into the ground, screaming his down command. When the puppy stayed down (probably peeing on the ground, ears tucked, etc), the handler tossed a treat to the ground, then clicked.

I went [sm=eek.gif]

OMG! The horror of it all! Here's a link:
 
[linkhttp://www.clickandtreat.com/Seminar_Schedule/Seminar_Dates/seminar_dates.html]http://www.clickandtreat.com/Seminar_Schedule/Seminar_Dates/seminar_dates.html[/link]
 
I understand from reading his site he not only advocates the use of a rolled up towel, but also throw pillows and dust rags! [8D]
 
What a beast! []

Aren't those the "balanced" trainers?  They click/reward for right and punish mistakes? I think it's pretty common. ..
 
Sort off topic, but during the course of a chat with a woman I know, I mentioned clikcer training. She said "I made my own clicker." Then described a penny can! So, she thought she was clicker training too!

I always have a problem with physical punishment that comes from, thus is associated with, the handler.  In a successful training relationship, you want the dog's trust, and you want the dog to make right choices.  Personally, I don't think that some of the "booby trap" training methods destroy that, although there's some debate as to how effective some of them are.  But, IMO, if you are "bonking" your dog, there's a communication gap somewhere. [8|]  As a trainer, I would really put more effort into trying to find a way to motivate the dog to overcome any recalcitrance or fear.  Iguess he probably feels that it's akin to the old stereotype of slapping a hysterical woman.  Wonder what else could work...  Chocolate?  Diamonds?  Fifty-thousand dollar gift certificate to Neiman Marcus or Tiffany's?

ORIGINAL: amyliz

Sort off topic, but during the course of a chat with a woman I know, I mentioned clikcer training. She said "I made my own clicker." Then described a penny can! So, she thought she was clicker training too!

 
It would depend how she was using the penny can.  If she was giving it a little shake and then giving the dog a treat, it becomes a conditioned reinforcer - just like a click.  Only problem is I can imagine the timing with such a device would be imprecise compared to a short neat "click".  Sorry.  That was continuing OT.  Carry on.

It seems sort of counter intuitive to encourage thinking/exploratory behavior on one hand and then "bonk" on the other. Is the "bonk" for one specific action or just any old action the handler wants to divert attention away from? It seems that if the dog doesn't specifically know whether they'll receive a click or a "bonk", they would be less likely to try new, desirable behaviors.
 
On the other hand Wolfgang stole a whole cooked roast off the counter while my back was turned last week. He knew he shouldn't but has never been given a reason not to that is more important than a couple of pounds of roast beef. It's not that important to me, but maybe cat chasing or something would be if all else failed.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

A friend just brought this to my attention, so I'm throwing it out there for your comments.  Often, we think of clicker trainers as always positive, but in reality there are people who use clickers, but are known to also use other techniques.  If you Google on "Gary Wilkes" and "bonk", an article will pop up that mentions his use of a - well, a bonk - on the head of a frightened Great Dane. 
What do you all think of this?

Never in a million years would I have ever do that to Blizzard, Drizzle, or Petro.  Oh, the thought.  Never to any of my fosters either.  Don't see any good in it at all. 

 Silly Great Danes...can't get enough of those pillow fights can they? 

[sm=rotfl.gif]

ORIGINAL: Stacita

Is the "bonk" for one specific action or just any old action the handler wants to divert attention away from? It seems that if the dog doesn't specifically know whether they'll receive a click or a "bonk", they would be less likely to try new, desirable behaviors.

Being a percussionist (drums mostly []) would say the contact sound is more of a "bop", really. A "bonk" conjures up thoughts of the sound a hard object would make when it strikes a skull. Ew...[:'(]

This isn't about distracting or clicking to mark a correct behavior. It sounds like a physical break of focus interaction (redirection of attention) combined with a direct correction from the leader.

IMO, sometimes what looks like simply "fear", is really a confused "venting" by a dog who does not know his place within his "family/pack/social" group or an excess of exited energy when he feels insecure due to how his human is behaving (anticipating).

ORIGINAL: Stacita

On the other hand Wolfgang stole a whole cooked roast off the counter while my back was turned last week. He knew he shouldn't...

How does he know that he shouldn't? []

There is a time and place for effective, well-executed and thoughtful positive punishment.

Behaviors that are so obviously self-reinforcing--like recreational barking, garbagerummaging and countersurfing--are not going to be effectively stopped by managing the environment in some situations, for some dogs. Some dogs will need thoughtful application of an electronic collar or a scat mat. It's the right thing to do for the dog and the human.

Bonking, squirting, throwing cans of pennies and tossing pillows at the dog is not in the realm of this kind of thoughtful use of positive punishment.

I don't see the use of hitting the dog. It will shut down because it doesn't have the same abstract reasoning that we do to connect that strike to what was done wrong. So then, they don't do anything. Or, respond to it as an attack and gain a bite history. When I have talked of using an aversive, it was never meant as a way to inflict pain but as a means of physical control. Even so, it is unnecessary to use a strike to achieve a sit or down when luring works so much faster and more clearly, thus more effectively.
 
And someone using a clicker after hitting a dog is useless. It's as if they would strike with the clicker rather than a rolled up paper and think they are clicker training, rather than paper training. I can't imagine what it's like to be that clueless.
 

Countersurfing is a self reinforcing behavior - dog goes on counter, dog gets roast beef, dog continues to check the counter to see if that is still a good place to find roast beef.  In that case, a booby trap is appropriate, so that the dog will find it unpleasant to go on the counter, even if the human isn't home.

I think that the "bonk", in this case, is just another one of those scenarios where the human wants results now, not next week or next month.  It's embarrassing to work with a dog and not get the result you want.  When that happens to me, I just explain why, and counsel the owner how to work toward the solution at home.  But, I would not simply bonk his dog as a quick fix.  I guess I think that if it would be inappropriate for a boss to bonk a subordinate in the corporate board room to get him to perform, it's probably even more inappropriate to do it to another sentient being that is in a frightened state, and doesn't even understand the language being spoken to him.
This dog was not in any danger, so why was this an imperative?

I never used the pennies in the can for training but my understanding is that it is to distract while making the dog associate something somewhat negative to his behavior.  My behaviorist once instructed us that if River didn't settle down in his crate to walk swiftly past his crate while we banged on the top of it, keep walking and no words.  We never had to use it because he always was good in his crate but the idea seemed like it would work. I don't know about the bonk? Is it meant to be used as a distraction or as physical harm?

For the record I've thrown pillows at River to have him stop something because I was too lazy to get up.  He did stop what he was doing but then started chewing on the pillows   So.. Didn#%92t really accomplish anything.