Lightbulb moments

If you mess up, still reward the dog. One poor response will not keep him from learning, but you need to insure that the dog knows that the click always predicts a treat.
If you are able to click 8-10 correct responses within 60 seconds, he is "getting it". If not, you should lower your criteria a bit.

 
That's what I learned about the process of shaping. And that the adage is correct. If he's not getting it, it is because I haven't broken it up into small enough chunks or the proper elementary move. Example, I can't just cue "calculus" if I haven't trained how to hold the pencil and paper. That's something that is quite clear to me now. And often times, we rush ourselves and our dogs. I wonder if some dogs got labeled stupid  or difficult incorrectly, when it was really a matter of a trainer mistep or missed step. What I like about the clicker methodology is that it, as a function of how it works, nearly automatically creates intense focus for dog and human. I think that is because of the binary nature of the process. Like a computer, 1's and 0's. Treat or no treat (or whatever the reward is.)
 
Thanks to Anne for pointing out what I had done by moving the "touch" game around the house as it was approximating a heel position walk. And I was able to do it out in the yard. I haven't proofed it yet. I have patience for that. But I do plan on translating it into walking on harness and leash, where I'll have a heel walk. Even if I was never able to proof it and let's say I always had to have treats in my hand for a heel walk. Big whoopee. I'm still getting him to heel walk based on his motivation. There are worse things than being a "treatbag." But I think the behavior can be proofed eventually.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
We used Lonnie Olson's "Backchained Retrieve".  (www.dogscouts.com)  

I found an article outlining this method on line and tried it with Mason a couple weeks ago (haven't tried again since).  He wouldn't "spit it out"!  He just laid down with the object and started chewing on it!  I tried to find a less desirable object, but then he just flat out refused to take it.  Like I said, I haven't been very persistent since I only worked with it one evening for about 10 minutes, but I was discouraged when he didn't respond the way I expected things to go!

I'm wondering if I've already inadvertantly made it more difficult for him to learn a good retrieve.  He naturally will chase and grab anything you throw, but then he wants to play chase afterwards.  I don't chase him for the objects, but I do stand around until he brings it back and then I'll throw it again as long as he sits first.  Before I bonded with him, this was a good way for me to help expend some of his energy, so I would just let him tear around the yard like a crazy dog.  Should we not play this way until after the retrieve is learned correctly?

How do I convince him to take the object into his mouth and then drop it? Do I just keep trying or somehow keep him from lying down and wait for him to drop it?  (He doesn't know "drop it" yet).

He will have to drop it in order to eat the treat won't he? Maybe lure him with a piece of food, as soon as he drops it to take the food...click

I know they always can choose to either work with me or not, I want to give them a good reason to want to be with me and work with me and enjoy being around me. And so far, it's been pretty effective. My husband is a miserable failure in this regard and it shows in how the dogs attend to him (or don't, as the case may be). He doesn't have anything to do with taking them to the park or the ballfield or any of the fun places we go, he doesn't play that fun clicking and treating game with them, he rarely does anything structured with them. He just comes home, gets them all riled up for 5 minutes, then wants them to get lost and then he pets them as they rest in the evening. So who do they want to follow, me or him? Who would you want to follow? He doesn't really punish them or yell at them (much) but he also has given them no reason to give a crap about what he says. The other day as he was attempting to give them some obedience commands (and failing), I said, "I hope you know who's fault it is that they don't really listen to you." I hate it when he blames the dogs because they aren't hanging on his every word, when he has done zero work to show them why they should care about what he says.

So anyone got any suggestions for clicker-training one's spouse?

 
houndlove, have you been spying on my household? What really bugs me when he says "stupid dog" after yelling the wrong command over and over again. Gee, who is being stupid?
 

ORIGINAL: tzumommy

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
We used Lonnie Olson's "Backchained Retrieve".  (www.dogscouts.com)  

I found an article outlining this method on line and tried it with Mason a couple weeks ago (haven't tried again since).  He wouldn't "spit it out"!  He just laid down with the object and started chewing on it!  I tried to find a less desirable object, but then he just flat out refused to take it.  Like I said, I haven't been very persistent since I only worked with it one evening for about 10 minutes, but I was discouraged when he didn't respond the way I expected things to go!

I'm wondering if I've already inadvertantly made it more difficult for him to learn a good retrieve.  He naturally will chase and grab anything you throw, but then he wants to play chase afterwards.  I don't chase him for the objects, but I do stand around until he brings it back and then I'll throw it again as long as he sits first.  Before I bonded with him, this was a good way for me to help expend some of his energy, so I would just let him tear around the yard like a crazy dog.  Should we not play this way until after the retrieve is learned correctly?

How do I convince him to take the object into his mouth and then drop it? Do I just keep trying or somehow keep him from lying down and wait for him to drop it?  (He doesn't know "drop it" yet).

One thing you can do is use food as a "trade" item.  

Some people use a duplicate item.  Example - dog has a tennis ball.  Human tosses another tennis ball.  Dog has to drop tennis ball #1 to pick up ball #2.
Some dogs learn "out", or "drop" this way.  Get a marrow bone.  Say "take it" as you hand it to the dog.  He mows on it (you are holding it the entire time).  Then, you say "out" as you stuff a piece of roast beef on his nose. You can have a partner click as you feed, or you can just feed.  You swap back and forth - marrow bone (take it), roast beef (out) until the dog understands the commands.  THEN, you can try another object. The first time I asked Sioux to "take it" with a dumbbell, I touched it with liver first to make it more interesting.

OK, I am making progress and I am very happy.  When I come home from my day, my home is chaos.  One Dane sees me driving down the road and sounds the alarm.  The sound of the garage door opening is confirmation.  Bark Bark Bark and the whole neighborhood knows I have arrived home.  The Danes are ok because they mostly bark and do greet me calmly.  The fosters on the other hand are going bonkers in their kennels.  They know I am home and that means out of the kennel, outside time, reunion of the entire pack once again, inside house freedom, and meal time.  In their kennel they are barking, running, jumping, out of control.  The two fosters, kept in separate but adjoining kennels feed off each other#%92s energy.  The frenzy has gotten to a point when one or both are released from the kennel, aggression started to escalate.  I tried different techniques to get them calm but with two of them, I had a hard time and this has been going on a long time.  My trainer instructed me to c/t for calm behavior in the kennel.  I also started the training by taking the “coming home” factor out of the situation.  The two fosters did very well with the c/t using one clicker-multiple sounds and also made progress in going to the backdoor and sit.  I am also getting better coordinating the switching the tones.  It has become seamless.    
 
But everytime the “coming home” factor was included in the situation, they would still loose it.  My instructor told me to have patience and wait for a calm moment, then c/t.  That moment was so unbelievable short but I persevered and slowly was able to extend the moment with each c/t for each dog.  Yesterday and today, they were excited when the Danes sound the alarm, but amazingly when I approached the kennel, my presence settled them down.  I continue the c/t until I see the calm I want.  The big reward for staying calm is the kennel gate opens.  They still run to the backdoor and sit but not as frantic.  They are also calmer outside when being reunited with the rest of the pack.  I am hoping they will associate with Danes#%92 alarm with being calm but I think that is a lot to ask.  Right now I am so happy with the progress I have made.  I think it was me that got the lightbulb moment.

DPU that's exactly what the volunteers at our local shelter do to help our shelter dogs appear less frantic and more adoptable when potential adopters approach their cages. All volunteers must, at the beginning of their volunteer stint with the shelter do at least 2 cumulative hours of "cage behavior".  All this is is walking around the kennel area with a pocketful of kibble or some treats and as each cage is approached, you wait for that moment of calm from the dog, and then give a reward. We want the dogs to associate humans approaching their cages with a time to be calm in order to gain a reward. People get wigged out when they see a shelter dog pinging around their cage and barking and freaking out (even though doing so is totally natural for a dog who is spending 23 hours a day in a cage), so this cage behavior program is tremendously important for the dogs. It does work. More and more shelters are adopting this approach because it is so effective.
 
I'm really glad to hear that you're seeing some results. I'm sure my own dogs could use a little refersher in this area! When I come home, seeing me they are totally fine but once they see each other they get really over-stimulated and it gets a little chaotic sometimes--and I only have two!

Had my first one today! I'm a super beginner clicker, and decided to start off with "go get your leash" because we were having positioning issues with "touch." I think the real breakthrough came when I tossed a couple of treats on to the leash - after that, when in doubt, he went sniffing back to the leash to see if there were any treat crumbs on it. Then, wow! C/T! He finally gave me this look like, "Is that *really* what you want me to do? Is this okay?" and then, hooray, he'd run over and touch the leash with his nose.

It took us a while to get out of the "mom has food she's not giving me, so she must want me to sit and hold perfectly still forever" mode, but once he started cautiously moving about he had it down in no time. Yay!

Now eventually I'm hoping to get him to pick it up and carry it to me, but... for now, I'm thrilled he's touching it with his nose. The hope is that eventually I will never lose his leash again, because he'll always be able to find it for me. []

I don't know if this will be useful but when I taught my dog to fetch the remote, I did the same as you but I was holding the item.  I gradually built up to having it next to me, then a little way away, then on the other side of the room etc. and the end of the behaviour was always, spit it out into my hand.