The Limits of Clicker Training

Well, I think any end point that is a behaviour that goes against the grain of the animal's instincts. I said in another thread that I don't think I can ever get my rabbit to roll over and present her belly for a rub because she's not the kind of rabbit to ever present that behaviour or anything remotely like it naturally. That doesn't mean I'm not going to see if I can get her to do that if it looks possible after all, but I doubt she'll ever get that comfortable with me.

I also think you have to be aware of the animal's psychological limitations. Asking a dog to lie down when there's a rude, pushy dog walking around wanting to stand over your dog and generally being unpleasant is a bit rich and unfair. As is expecting a dog to lie down when it's very agitated through fear or aggression. I think there would be some dogs that wouldn't do it no matter how much you clicked and treated. Actually, now that I think about it all those things are pretty much the same thing. Let's say instead that you may be limited by the animal's comfort level with the behaviour you're trying to train. I think you can certainly increase comfort level using clicker training, but there may be limits to how much you can increase it. I guess there's a point where you say, my animal really doesn't want to do this. Do I work my butt off for months to get it doing it or just leave it?

I'm also reasonably doubtful I can clicker train my wild hare. He just doesn't care enough about anything to really work for it. I'm still tossing up ideas about whether I can use taking pressure off him as a reward. I am thinking about using the clicker with him as a communication tool to help him draw links between his behaviour and my responses, but to be honest, he's freakily good at that already and has absolutely beat the hell out of me in the race for him to understand human and me to understand hare. When we bridge species gaps to communicate, he pretty much does all the work and I just limp along using his superior abilities as a crutch. It's rather humbling to learn that a wild hare is way better than a formally trained student of animal behaviour at understanding other species.

Well, I think what it all boils down to, is that dogs do what works. Just as people do.

Dogs are working for that big jackpot(payoff) the same as people who work for their check every week.

Some dogs work for food, some work to avoid corrections.  All the same, it is still work.

If clicker training is not working, then evidently the paycheck is not big enough.

Now I know that some people are under the assumption that dogs want to please, they live for praise and yada yada...Okay, I'll buy that.....but only when people start working for 'atta boys' and 'boss, all I aim to do is please' instead of money.

As far as what can/can't be taught with clicker training...I think boils down to what  a dog is willing to work and be paid for.

And that could very well depend on the individual personality of the dog.

although I know Lana Mitchell is doing some clicker training of herding behaviors,  I have not been able to determine a method to apply clicker training to herding... I have enough trouble managing a stock stick, line and my own feet,,,,not to mention the sheep who are in constant motion.  Dont see how to add a clicker to that mix at the moment.

I said in another thread that I don't think I can ever get my rabbit to roll over and present her belly for a rub because she's not the kind of rabbit to ever present that behaviour or anything remotely like it naturally.

 
ah, but this is where shaping comes in. You don't need the animal to offer the entire behavior at once. All you need is a remote approximation of it, and you can proceed from there. 
 

I have doubts about using a clicker in bite work and field trials where noise level could obscure the sound. But that doesn't mean you can't click on a controlled bite or click on solid recall. Of course, a lot of cattle dog work relies on a whistle, something they can hear in full run around a flock of bleating sheep.
 

Clicker training is not dependent on the clicker as your marker.  You can use a penlight (we do for deaf dogs), a "clicker" that chirps, etc.
Steve White, a police K-9 trainer with 32 years experience, is an enthusiastic supporter of clicker training, and is trying to enlighten others.
He came upon it accidentally when he purchased a copy of "Don't Shoot the Dog" to read on an airplane trip.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I said in another thread that I don't think I can ever get my rabbit to roll over and present her belly for a rub because she's not the kind of rabbit to ever present that behaviour or anything remotely like it naturally.

ah, but this is where shaping comes in. You don't need the animal to offer the entire behavior at once. All you need is a remote approximation of it, and you can proceed from there. 

I think we already mentioned the rewarding of approximations as one way that people get their greyhounds to "sit" (without pushing their butts to the floor).
Another method is to simply "capture" the behavior - if the animal ever does it on their own...C/T. 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Clicker training is not dependent on the clicker as your marker.  You can use a penlight (we do for deaf dogs), a "clicker" that chirps, etc.
Steve White, a police K-9 trainer with 32 years experience, is an enthusiastic supporter of clicker training, and is trying to enlighten others.
He came upon it accidentally when he purchased a copy of "Don't Shoot the Dog" to read on an airplane trip.

"Steve White specializes in teaching behavior modification, tracking, and scent work through the use of positive reinforcement based operant conditioning."

No where, not one single place could I find where "Steve" uses a clicker for bite work. Would you mind showing us were that claim is being made.

ORIGINAL: ron2

I have doubts about using a clicker in bite work and field trials where noise level could obscure the sound. But that doesn't mean you can't click on a controlled bite or click on solid recall. Of course, a lot of cattle dog work relies on a whistle, something they can hear in full run around a flock of bleating sheep.

You can be in a field with no noise, and I'm telling you from years of experience, *a click* will not make a dog release that bite. And if the dog does release, that's not a dog I'd have in police work. The officers life is more important than how someone feels about "clicker training". Now if your talking bite work for fun where a soft dog can be used, well click away.

But you have a release command right?  And the dog has to be just as reliable on the release as he is on the bite or he's a liability, surely?  A click means "Job done!"  Could you not use whistle for this purpose (in theory and obviously on a dog trained this way from scratch) b/c it is a more "intrusive" sound?

Also, the marker needs to be followed by whatever is most rewarding to the dog - so there would need to be something more rewarding to him than the bite.  Is this why a dog would be taken off the programme if he released "too easily" (at the prospect of a game of tug or a piece of sauasge which is what the marker would signify)?  Is it that you want a dog for whom the bite is the most rewarding experience and nothing is going to distract him from it?  And that the dog is not working for some positive reinforcement at the end of it, but for the joy of the work itself stlye of thing?  If that is the case, then how you "build drive" in a potential dog - or do you not work with dogs that need their drive building?  And if that is the case, then how do you build a release that's as solid and reliable as the bite, or is that not as important?  Or are aversives used?  Or what?

And what is the reasoning for not using it for scent work.... the scent work dogs I've seen have all been working for some kind of positive goal at the end rather than the work itself, so I can't see why marker training couldn't be used as this is just another branch of +ve training....?

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog
You can be in a field with no noise, and I'm telling you from years of experience, *a click* will not make a dog release that bite. And if the dog does release, that's not a dog I'd have in police work. The officers life is more important than how someone feels about "clicker training". Now if your talking bite work for fun where a soft dog can be used, well click away.

 
It doesn't seem like you get clicker training. The 'click' is a marker that indicates to the dog - what you just did was good. It is NOT a command or "release" mechanism meant to make the dog release their bite. Just like I wouldn't click to tell the dog to lay down, you wouldn't click to tell the dog to release their bite. The click is a construction tool, used to mark the right behavior.

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog
You can be in a field with no noise, and I'm telling you from years of experience, *a click* will not make a dog release that bite. And if the dog does release, that's not a dog I'd have in police work. The officers life is more important than how someone feels about "clicker training". Now if your talking bite work for fun where a soft dog can be used, well click away.

It doesn't seem like you get clicker training. The 'click' is a marker that indicates to the dog - what you just did was good. It is NOT a command or "release" mechanism meant to make the dog release their bite. Just like I wouldn't click to tell the dog to lay down, you wouldn't click to tell the dog to release their bite. The click is a construction tool, used to mark the right behavior.

 
Not strictly true (from what I understand - and I'd like to emphasise that bit!!)
 
A marker can mean, as I said above, "That's exactly what I wanted!  Job done, now time for the reward"  which is what A-dog is seeing it as.  OR it can mean "Yes thats exactly it, thats what I want, keep going, reward is on the way".  Which is what you are seeing it as.  I think it's important to point out that I don't think either of you are wrong.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog
You can be in a field with no noise, and I'm telling you from years of experience, *a click* will not make a dog release that bite. And if the dog does release, that's not a dog I'd have in police work. The officers life is more important than how someone feels about "clicker training". Now if your talking bite work for fun where a soft dog can be used, well click away.

It doesn't seem like you get clicker training. The 'click' is a marker that indicates to the dog - what you just did was good. It is NOT a command or "release" mechanism meant to make the dog release their bite. Just like I wouldn't click to tell the dog to lay down, you wouldn't click to tell the dog to release their bite. The click is a construction tool, used to mark the right behavior.

Not strictly true (from what I understand - and I'd like to emphasise that bit!!)

A marker can mean, as I said above, "That's exactly what I wanted!  Job done, now time for the reward"  which is what A-dog is seeing it as.  OR it can mean "Yes thats exactly it, thats what I want, keep going, reward is on the way".  Which is what you are seeing it as.  I think it's important to point out that I don't think either of you are wrong.

 
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I see a marker as indicating - "what you just did was right, you're getting a reward". Adog said "I'm telling you from years of experience, *a click* will not make a dog release that bite."  As if the click itself is the command for "release the bite". A click is not a command, it is a marker. Whether you use voice commands or a whistle or hand signals, the dog must respond to a command of some sort. Then you click to indicate - "good job". You don't click to say "stop biting now".

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog
You can be in a field with no noise, and I'm telling you from years of experience, *a click* will not make a dog release that bite. And if the dog does release, that's not a dog I'd have in police work. The officers life is more important than how someone feels about "clicker training". Now if your talking bite work for fun where a soft dog can be used, well click away.

It doesn't seem like you get clicker training. The 'click' is a marker that indicates to the dog - what you just did was good. It is NOT a command or "release" mechanism meant to make the dog release their bite. Just like I wouldn't click to tell the dog to lay down, you wouldn't click to tell the dog to release their bite. The click is a construction tool, used to mark the right behavior.

Oh good grief man, can't you remember what's said from one thread to another. I've aleady explained and gave ***in detail*** what it is, only I didn't use a clicker.