Clicker Training and Permissiveness

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

"In addition, even trainers who claim to be Positive Only will use something to discourage a dog from repeating an undesirable behaviour - often something like negative punishment.  Say you train the dog to sit at the door and wait for permission to go out.  If his bum comes off the floor the door shuts.  "

I don't consider this to be an aversive. The dog gets rewarded (by going out) for performing the behavior (the sit) correctly, if he doesn't perform it correctly he doesn't get the reward.  What is the undesirable behavior that is being discouraged-- bolting out the door? it's being discouraged by teaching an incompatible behavior, sitting until released, not by using an aversive. Discouraging bolting out the door via an aversive would be something like slamming the door on the dog as he tries to bolt out, or using a leash to stop him, or screaming at him, or spraying water in his face.  

 
Clearly we are not using the same definition of the word "aversive".  I'm probably using the wrong one to be honest.  The way I see it, anything that discourages the dog from repeating an action is an aversive.  The door doesn't have to close on the dog at all for it to be an aversive if you look at it this way.  If Rover gets up, door shuts.... so he is discouraged from getting up and keeps his bottom firmly on the floor.  I think this is termed "negative punishment".  I view "negative punishment" as a kind of aversive.  Perhaps that's complete misuse of the terminology?  Correct me if I'm wrong so we can all be on the same page.

The way I see it, anything that discourages the dog from repeating an action is an aversive.

 
Not necessarily. We have to be careful to differentiate "aversive" from "punishment", because they are not necessarily one and the same.
 
Aversive, by itself, is simply something an animal dislikes, and will often (not always) work to avoid. Something can be aversive and not be punishing. Something can be aversive and be reinforcing (the use of a choke chain is a classic example - the dog works to avoid the pain from the chain). Many things that people do to dogs can be aversive - yanking on the leash, smacking, scruff shaking, yelling. That does not make them punishing though, as to be a punisher it HAS to decrease the frequency of a behaviour occurring.
 
Things can be punishing without necessarily being aversive to the dog. If I turn my back to Gaci when she jumps up, that punishes the behaviour of jumping up, but she does not find that aversive. However, if I use the NRM that I used a long time ago (when I thought it was "best" to use them, I don't use NRM's at all anymore as I've learned I don't need to), she finds that VERY aversive, and for her it's actually a punisher - she shuts down totally. I use body blocks to prevent certain behaviours from occurring (my definition of body block is not to physically use my body to move another dog, but rather to position my body in such a way that the behaviour cannot occur......some people use the term body block to mean that they use their body to physically manipulate the dog), but *most* dogs do not find that aversive. However, for another dog an NRM might simply be the meaning for "not now" or "try something else", and for that dog turning your back on it might be very, very aversive.
 
Which brings alight another topic, and that is - the dog is the decision maker as to what is aversive or not. What's aversive for one dog is not necessarily aversive for another dog. It's very easy for the handler to make the assumption that something is or is not aversive, but in the end it's the dog that decides that, and you don't know whether or not something is aversive until your dog tells you otherwise. If Gaci did not find NRM's aversive, I may very well have used it much longer than I did, and if she found body blocks to be aversive I would not have used body blocks as a means of communication with her. So we really have to carefully listen to each of our own dogs, to determine what is or is not aversive to them on a dog-to-dog basis.
 
And we also have to distinguish the term "aversive" on its own, from "aversive conditioning", in which context the animal learns to avoid or a noxious or punishing stimulus.
 
What your quote is describing "could" fit the bill, but it's too general. For instance, baby gates prevent dogs from being able to chew up the couch, but most dogs don't find baby gates aversive. Body blocks prevent dogs from doing certain behaviours, most dogs don't find them aversive. Extinction in itself discourages the dog from doing a behaviour (it is neither rewarded nor non-rewarded), and it really depends on the dog, and what the dog wants, as to if it's aversive or not.
 
For instance, rats have been trained do handle some very aversive things in order to obtain food or sex, such as running across an electrified floor to reach the reward (the food or the female mouse). Running across the floor is most certainly aversive to the animal (and one can witness hesitiation in such studies), as it is most certainly painful and well, electrifying, but the reward at the end outweighs the downfall of the aversive, so the animal will accept the aversive in order to obtain what it wants.
 
Does that make more sense?
 
Kim MacMillan

Erm yes I THINK so..... 
 

  Aversive, by itself, is simply something an animal dislikes, and will often (not always) work to avoid

 
So in a way I was nearly kind of sort of right in that example, because the dog doesn't like the door shutting and wants to avoid that (because he wants to go outside).  Anyway I'm not going back to correct anything because it will just get even more confusing.  I just hope people got where I was coming from.
 

What your quote is describing "could" fit the bill, but it's too general. For instance, baby gates prevent dogs from being able to chew up the couch, but most dogs don't find baby gates aversive

 
Hmmm.... I think I specifically used the word "discourage".  The gate doesn't discourage the dog from chewing the couch, it simply prevents it..... I would never class a gate as an aversive, but its definately a preventative.  So I definately get where you;re coming from on that one.  I think.
 
Argh!

Clearly we are not using the same definition of the word "aversive". I'm probably using the wrong one to be honest. The way I see it, anything that discourages the dog from repeating an action is an aversive.

 
I think maybe the word you're looking for is punishment. A lot, if not most, of PR trainers use negative punishers (the removal of a motivator or reward).

Well at least I got one thing right - I called it negative punishment, but also said I view negative punishments as a kind of aversive.  Now I know to be more wary about the term "aversive".  Thanks for clearing it up.

ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

I've read about many people in this forum that have gone from traditional correction based training to operant conditioning training, the funny thing is, I can't recall anyone that went the other way, I wonder why that is.

Isn't the answer inherently obvious? *grin*

 
OT I know, sorry, but.... I found one I found one!!
 
Sorry.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

Well, I can see where the permissiveness thing comes from. I have "Clicking with Your Dog" by Peggy Tillman. Great book - but the solution for most problems is to ask for an incompatible behavior. Works great BUT either I'm doing something wrong or my dog has an above-average ability to link behaviors.

To get her to stop harassing the cat (who, by the way, usually deserved it) I'd call her to me and ask for a down or roll-over or spin and click/treat her. I tried to do it randomly through the day, but it didn't take her long to figure out that EVERY TIME she harassed Cletus, she'd get a click/treat. Consequently, Cletus the Brat Cat got harassed even more than he deserved (which I didn't think was possible!) and Lucy would run to me and start offering behaviors then run back to bug Cletus. So I started using body blocking to stop the kitty-cornering and THEN asking for another behavior to reward. This is in addition to random training sessions throughout the day. That reduced the cat harassment immensely. Distraction stopped the kitty wars while they were happening, but she never learned not to start a skirmish until I blocked her from the cat.

I had the same problem with distractions from barking when we were camping. If she saw another dog she'd go nuts - and noisy dogs are frowned upon at most campgrounds. So I started calling her to me and asking for a down the click/treat. Pretty soon, she would run to the end of her tether - bark at the other dog - then run right back to me for her click/treat! I started making her wait longer for the treat and asking for more behaviors between treats but we didn't have it all worked out before camping season ended.

Just my opinion here...

I think the issue, in your case, was timing.  If you wait until the dog is actually harassing the cat then you've waited too long to ask for the desired behavior.  If you catch the dog (by reading the body language) just before he begins the harassment, you'd probably have better luck.

The upside of your efforts is that you learned your dog was exceptionally smart.  He learned to link behavior one to sequential interruption to behaviors 2 and 3 and beyond to a treat.  Now that's some great linking and some great thinking.

IMO the idea is that if you distract just BEFORE the behavior begins, you'll have better luck with the cessation of that behavior.  Of course that's just my humble theory.

I had this problem with my dog taking ornimantes off my xmas tree.  I would call him away from the tree and then treat him for being a good boy and coming.  He quickly associated bothering the tree with me calling him, with a treat.  I was clearly reinforcing the wrong behavior.
 

IMO the idea is that if you distract just BEFORE the behavior begins, you'll have better luck with the cessation of that behavior.  Of course that's just my humble theory.

Yup... I figured that out the hard way. Lucy is a great teacher! I do try as much as I can to regulate her environment and watch for signs that she's interested in the cat. I also have to watch the cat and make sure the little monster isn't plotting a coup againt the dogs [sm=devil.gif] He starts it as much as she does. I've started asking her to find her ball when she gets fixated on the cats so the critter fight quickly turns into a game of fetch. She's gradually learning to take her energy out on her toys instead of the cat.

The windows are another matter. It's super-easy to disctract her if I spot someone walking by before she does. But we still needed the body blocking to get her to stop once things get started. She's to the point now that all I have to do is stand up and point and snap my fingers or say "uh-uh" and she'll back off even if I'm on the other side of the room. Then she gets scritches or a toy or treat. Unless we have another dog going by my house I don't even need to block her anymore.

I truly believe in managing environment as much as possible. But there comes a time when you are going to need a tool like NRM or body block to help redirect. I've found them VERY helpful. I think Lucy learns faster, too if she knows what is expected. It would be hard to learn anything if you never knew what was wrong and had to keep guessing and guessing until you got it right. You just can't be harsh or any dog (or kid) would quit trying to get it right.

I think dogs will comply with humans once they truly understand what the human wants.

Sometimes getting them to understand what you want is the hard part.  But, I don't think they intentionally do things to spite us or intentionally disobey.

I think also sometimes habit and instinct  may overide them. 

Sometimes mine will get a wild jekyll and hyde look in his eye.  As if he is trying to overcome the instinct and implement whatever command I have given him.. 

"I think Lucy learns faster, too if she knows what is expected. It would be hard to learn anything if you never knew what was wrong and had to keep guessing and guessing until you got it right. You just can't be harsh or any dog (or kid) would quit trying to get it right."