Thoughts on training session shut-down? sorry- kinda long

I'm not big on the idea of "Barking NO".
 
Using the method linked below has worked pretty well for us. Using the sit has been far more effective (perhaps because it isn't threatning) than down in stressful situations.
 
[linkhttp://www.flyingdogpress.com/selfpg.html]http://www.flyingdogpress.com/selfpg.html[/link]

Ok at the risk of beating a dead horse ([] stated with humor and a bit of teasing).  Dogs are stimulus dependent creatures.  This means that what has been learned and learned well (90 % accuracy in successive trials on successive days and maintained over time)  will still need to learn the behavior (as it were brand new) when the environment changes.  To address this issues, develop a mind set to "reteach" in the new environment.  This can occur by reducing the expectation by providing a cue or lure, reducing the level of competency expected initially, increasing the value of the reinforcer to enhance desire.  The really good thing is dogs are creatures of anticipation and after learning multiple behaviors in mulitple environments their stock of prior learning and practice comes into play and they become able to replicate behavior on command under increasingly challenging distractions/situations.

Some things to help.  Do some low level/demand behaviors with high quality reinforcers to "rev" the dog up (sort of like cheers prior to the start of a game).  Practice in multiple environments during the learning phase, ALWAYS providing adequate support so the dog is practicing behavior correctly.  The most easily manipulated supports are the length of time a behavior maintains, the length of time before the behavior occurs, the distance from the dog and the schedule of reinforcement.  Remember reinforcement does not always need to be food, attention, pets, toy access, change in activity can all act as reinforcers.

Oops forgot stuff.... there is no need to become a yeller,  all it does is demonstrate frustration on your part.  That travels down the leash.  If she is so concerns, I believe (and you might find some details on Susan Clothiers [linkhttp://www.flyingdogpress.com]www.flyingdogpress.com[/link] that will offer insights) it is our responsibility to help our dogs learn to deal with fear.  That will occur when trust develops.  If she need to learn to deal with the distraction, then that is what the lesson should be.  Oops already had that suggestion provided.

Some ideas:  REALLY high quality food (people food preferred) in small bites.  Offer the food even if she does not take it.  There is value in going early and exposing her for 30-45 minutes walking around and investigating (not training) and reinforcing calm behavior or investigation.  The idea of walking as close as you can until resistance.  Stop and back up.  Then work on developing a calm response.  In some cases that may be practicing commands, but it may also be just standing quietly.  After a minute or so in one spot (calmly standing with you)  move AWAY from the distraction and approach again from a different direction.

Thanks so much for the feedback and the link, mrv.
 
Interestingly, what you suggested (asking for something easy, and upping the reinforcers) is a lot similar to what I brought up at the session when trying to think of an alternative way of obtaining obedience. My trainer poo-pooed it because I couldn't even get her attention, and Pocket tends to sit automatically when focussing on something, so there wasn't much else to do that was easier than that.
 
What bothered me was that Pocket is normally fairly obedient and responsive, but for some reason tonight she wouldn't give me anything to work with (the phrase throw me a bone comes to mind- pun intended).
 
Are fear distractions any different to regular (e.g. new dogs, novel environment) distractions?

these things happen in dog training. Best to forget about it completely and move on.
Let's see. You'd been working non-stop for over half an hour? lots of dogs simply cannot maintain focus for anywhere near that long and will have meltdowns if you ask for that. Particularly if it was your first session. Short n sweet training sessions are best. Lots of breaks to chill if it's an organized class that's supposed to go for an hour.
If your dog does have a total melt-down like yours did, I would have put the dog on leash and taken a short walk away from the agility field and let the dog de-compress. Away from the stress, then ask for some really simple, easy behaviors. And once the dog has experienced a few easy successes, it sometimes is best to quit for the day. Punishing a dog (barking NO) is probably the worst thing you can do with a dog having a stress meltdown like that.

Ugh, your trainer's attitude is all too common... I hate that "don't let him get away with that" attitude. That was the source of much stress for me (and I would imagine my dog) when I first started obedience training.
 
In that situation I would have ended the session and left. Anyone can have an off day and any dog can have an off day... in fact I think the fact that you got in a good half hour should be viewed as a success.
 
Sometimes I think you have to stop and ask yourself, why are we doing this? Are we doing this to have fun and bond and learn new things, or to get upset and tense and disappointed? Don't work against your own goals... or maybe more accurately, don't let anyone push you into working against your goals.

I don't think the "NO!" would be very helpful at all for a fearful dog. I WOULD prefer to end the training session on a high note, though. When I did the horse thing, it was MANDATORY that we didn't leave that arena without completing an exercise successfully. Even if it meant that we had to drop that 24" jump to 6" to get the horse over it - we didn't leave until we got over the jump. This was both for the rider's AND the horse's benefit. Maybe if this happens again you can put her on the leash and walk around the course or take her over her favorite obstacle just to give her something to accomplish that can be praised before you end the session.

Your dog was also in a new environment, right?

Dogs don't generalize well, and if the paddock was a new environment then it was stimulating to just be there. There is no reason to expect your dog to know things it learned in the garage outside the garage--dogs just don't work that way.

Sorry, but your trainer sounds like a total bozo.

I agree with "trainer is a bozo".  A fearful dog that cannot take food, or focus on its handler, needs to be removed to a safer distance (even if that means out of sight of the scary thing), and then worked with to re-focus on the handler.  I am not surprised that your dog would not "down".  That's called "intelligent disobedience" - she thought there was a threat, and no dog lies down when faced with a threat - they remain in "fight or flight" mode.  You can't flee as fast if you lie down.

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all the feedback. I was really taken aback by my trainer's suggestions as he has always been adamant about using +R (though he doesn't call it that), and no physical punishment whatsoever, but apparently this situation is different. His philosophy is that "dogs are essentially wolves", so considers training as a method of establishing communication, and using drives, body language etc. to motivate dogs to do stuff.
 
Basically his logic was that I should demand 100% obedience all the time because it could be a matter of life and death, and by getting her to lie down was going to be my way of demonstrating that I am in control of the situation and that there's nothing for her to worry about. Her resistance reflected her lack of trust/confidence in me as a leader (and my ability to protect her from the threat), and therefore should be fixed/corrected.
 
She had had a few minutes before we started to explore the paddock, and wasn't doing continuous work- while he was explaining the equipment/methods to me she got free time so in a sense she had some time to acclimate. 
 
I'm glad that I'm not the only one that disagrees with the barking "no!"- it seemed so counterintuitive to me but I'm not very good at debating intelligently when put on the spot (particularly with "authorities") so wasn't able to provide a good reason why I shouldnt' do it his way.

When I did the horse thing, it was MANDATORY that we didn't leave that arena without completing an exercise successfully.

 
A common belief, but I've found this is often counter-productive. Yes, you need to end on a good note, but hammering away at the exercise that is causing the problem, even if you make it easier, doesn't help the horse, rider, handler, or dog that is having a stress meltdown. Sometimes the best thing you can do is quit for the day. Go do something really easy, walk away, and approach the problem the next day.

Yes, you need to end on a good note, but hammering away at the exercise that is causing the problem, even if you make it easier, doesn't help the horse, rider, handler, or dog that is having a stress meltdown.

Hmmm. Never thought about it that way, but I don't then we ever got to the "stress meltdown" point. We always stepped *back* to a point where we knew we could complete something successfully. I had a really good instructor, though. She was fabulous at knowing when we needed a push and when we needed to take a step back to where we were more comfortable.

I don't think there is a reason to debate with the trainer. It is your dog.  You have the ultimate say so in how it is handled.

If you are not comfortable with the trainer (and it honestly sounds like you aren't) find another.

Vinia, I know you're very solid on learning theory, so I'm just chiming in to agree wholeheartedly with mudpuppy. Sometimes dogs have just had enough and they fray at the edges and if you keep going, completely unravel. It's no big deal, IMO. I don't think it's necessary for them to be able to pay intense attention to you for hours at a time or something.

I was always a very good student, but my attention span is kinda dismal. An hour of repetetive study and I can't take any more. I have half hour break and get back into it, but then I can only go 40 minutes before I need a 40 minute break, then I last 30 minutes before I need a 50 minute break, and so on. [] Doesn't mean I can't perform when I need to, just that I'm not so hot at practice.

As for Pocket being scared because you're not a strong enough leader.... I have some very serious doubts about this philosophy. My dog, just sometimes, flat doesn't believe me when I tell her that scary monster is nothing to worry about, but for the most part, she's happy to take my lead. Maybe Pocket's reaction was as much frustration that she was feeling frazzled and couldn't concentrate anymore and was obviously upsetting you than simple fear of a weird man doing inexplicable things one paddock over.

sorry life interfered with my response time,,, however, you got some really good answers to the question so I need not feel too guilty.