"what is wrong with clicker training"

I've concluded that my main change of heart in the past couple years has to primarily due not with the everyday training methodologies that I use, but in what I think a dog is. I used to think that dogs were somehow special, and unlike all other animals. They live in our houses with us (though so do cats and ferrets and bunnies and fish) and I honestly used to percieve them as somehow hardwired to want to "please" humans in a way that no other animal was. From that viewpoint, saying you can clicker train a dolphin doesn't have anything to do with dogs. I have changed now to the complete opposite way of thinking: dogs are animals. You can apply the same laws of learning to them as to any other animal and it makes no difference that they live in our house and a dolphin lives in a tank. We might teach them different things (how to wait at the door rather than how to jump up and touch a ball suspended over a tank) because of our close living situation with them, but fundamentally there isn't a huge difference. Dogs have no more innate desire to please us than a hermit crab does. The fact that they are highly social and highly domesticated makes it easy to train them and makes them usually pleasant to live with

Most exotic animal keepers now use some form of clicker training to work with thier animals. Everything from big cats to komodo dragons. "Don't Shoot the Dog" is used as a textbook at the premier exotics training and management facility in the country (and for an exotics keeper, they do work in very close proximity to the animals and the issue of safety is a large one, just like our domestic dogs). Now, to someone who feels that dogs are somehow different from all other animals, and the fact that they live in our houses making them doubly different, that's not going to mean a hill of beans. But if you feel that dogs are simply a highly social, domesticated animal like any other animal, that really says a lot.

Now, what I got from the article wasn't "clicker training is worthless." Just that this guy thinks that an operant-conditioning-only approach was unbalanced. I mean unbalanced in the sense that there are other learning methods and insticts that also affect behavior that SOME trainers ignore.

His biggest problem is stereotyping all clicker-trainers as completely anti-aversive. There are many out there that combine operant conditioning with classical conditioning when necessary just the way he claims to do.

The article gave me something to think about but the author's tone really put me off. But then I can say that about a few "positive-only" training articles I've read also. I want to know why something is better - not why something else is bad.

Another thing I have noticed is happiness.

My dogs seem to really get a twinkle in their eye when we are in the middle of a session.

They get all happy  and bouncy, and start throwing out some silly stuff.

Jones wrote: "On the contrary, CT is not all about what humans want, it's all about handing some power and control back to the dog, telling them, "here, be creative, show me what you got, and I'll pick out the things I like best." This is two-way communication, rather than the simple "place dog's body, reward for compliance" style of training."

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


The reason that argument is brought up is not that if you can train a dolphin, you can train a dog.  It's brought up as a way to illustrate that  because  a whale or dolphin cannot be physically forced to comply, the trainer must find a method that is hands-off.  That does not imply that either all dolphins or all dogs are trainable, just that if you expect to train an animal, you need not use physical domination to do so.

Well, I wouldn't like to trust to my clicker as a particularly large and unusually cranky whale bears down on me. But hey, any other method is probably just going to enrage it more and ensure you get injured rather than just making it likely you'll get injured.

Who's that dude who uses big cats in his magic shows? I remember him saying that if, right before the show, one of the cats is suddenly not in the mood, that's it, they get to stay in their cage no questions asked. It doesn't matter how well trained they are or how much they like him and performing; if they don't feel like it then you don't want to risk annoying them by making them do it anyway. After all, they're basically wild and they can kill you. Even so, he still managed to misjudge and suffered the consequences. I think the take-home message is that some animals are dangerous to work with no matter what the method you use.

ORIGINAL: JM

Another thing I have noticed is happiness.

My dogs seem to really get a twinkle in their eye when we are in the middle of a session.

They get all happy  and bouncy, and start throwing out some silly stuff.

Jones wrote: "On the contrary, CT is not all about what humans want, it's all about handing some power and control back to the dog, telling them, "here, be creative, show me what you got, and I'll pick out the things I like best." This is two-way communication, rather than the simple "place dog's body, reward for compliance" style of training."

YES!  Sally's eyes light up when we are doing exercies with the clicher.  She really, really enjoys it.  Believe me, I didn't start clicker training so that I could be politically correct or feel warm and fuzzy inside.  Honestly, when I first got a dog I though clicker training was the biggest load of crap ever.  I got into it because I hear some positive things about it and thought it might be something neat to try, and she LOVES it.

ORIGINAL: corvus

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


The reason that argument is brought up is not that if you can train a dolphin, you can train a dog.  It's brought up as a way to illustrate that  because  a whale or dolphin cannot be physically forced to comply, the trainer must find a method that is hands-off.  That does not imply that either all dolphins or all dogs are trainable, just that if you expect to train an animal, you need not use physical domination to do so.

Well, I wouldn't like to trust to my clicker as a particularly large and unusually cranky whale bears down on me. But hey, any other method is probably just going to enrage it more and ensure you get injured rather than just making it likely you'll get injured.

Who's that dude who uses big cats in his magic shows? I remember him saying that if, right before the show, one of the cats is suddenly not in the mood, that's it, they get to stay in their cage no questions asked. It doesn't matter how well trained they are or how much they like him and performing; if they don't feel like it then you don't want to risk annoying them by making them do it anyway. After all, they're basically wild and they can kill you. Even so, he still managed to misjudge and suffered the consequences. I think the take-home message is that some animals are dangerous to work with no matter what the method you use.

Even a dog can kill a human, but I don't think that absolves us of the responsibility of dealing with them in a humane way until there is a threat.  If you can't communicate with an animal, I think it is far more likely that you will get a negative response.  And, of course, we need to be mindful of the fact that some of the animals we attempt to train are hardwired as predators.  Of course, I don't think you can trust force any more than you can trust a clicker when things go that wrong.  So, your "take home" message is a good one.

Same here.  For some odd reason, I rebeled against a clicker.

 Then one poster posted that they rebeled against the clicker  (being stubborn, accidently found one at the park ) and I realized that was what I was doing.  Being stubborn.

So, thus far during a clicker session,  we have the dog learning and making decisions, obeying commands,  being happy, and all the while working for food.

Wow!  Maybe the clicker actually is the Spawn of Satan.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

ORIGINAL: JM

Another thing I have noticed is happiness.

My dogs seem to really get a twinkle in their eye when we are in the middle of a session.

They get all happy  and bouncy, and start throwing out some silly stuff.

Jones wrote: "On the contrary, CT is not all about what humans want, it's all about handing some power and control back to the dog, telling them, "here, be creative, show me what you got, and I'll pick out the things I like best." This is two-way communication, rather than the simple "place dog's body, reward for compliance" style of training."

YES!  Sally's eyes light up when we are doing exercies with the clicher.  She really, really enjoys it.  Believe me, I didn't start clicker training so that I could be politically correct or feel warm and fuzzy inside.  Honestly, when I first got a dog I though clicker training was the biggest load of crap ever.  I got into it because I hear some positive things about it and thought it might be something neat to try, and she LOVES it.

Then one poster posted that they rebeled against the clicker (being stubborn, accidently found one at the park ) and I realized that was what I was doing. Being stubborn.

That was me. [] 
Maybe clickers do exert some kind of mind control... it is a cult after all! LOL

I probably would have really dismissed clicker training a couple years ago as touchy-feely wishy-washy crap. I know when my husband first told me his school was moving to positive discipline I thought that was crap. But he didn't and I respect his opinion so I opened my mind back up again. And then as I went through grad school and did more teaching I realized it actually makes a lot of sesnse if you do it right and don't go all half-assed (which is what most schools do with that program).

I had a woman tell me, flat-out and point-blank, that positive training simply doesn't work. It was just a random stranger who I had struck up a conversation with at the vegetarian cafe. She'd never met my dogs. I just told her what my training methodology is and she just laughed (in that really patronizing, "oh ye of little knowledge" way) and said "Oh that doesn't work!"

As I say, to give it a try, it takes a lot of unlearning as well as learning.

It took me a long time to open up to clicker training.  A few years back I would have thought it wishy washy as well, but even after I opened my mind a little and gentled my approach considerably, I still didn't go for the clicker.  I don't have much truck with gadgets unfortunately, it's probably a character flaw.  And even when I opened up to the idea that this might actually be a good thing, I thought the success stories were exaggerated.  And I thought it was only of any value to someone reeeally experienced training animals for films and stuff and not relevant to "the real world".  It wasn't until a few years ago trying to train a "stubborn" bull terrier that I finally gave one a go. 

Another thing I have noticed is happiness.

My dogs seem to really get a twinkle in their eye when we are in the middle of a session.

They get all happy and bouncy, and start throwing out some silly stuff.

 
My dogs get like that when I put my jacket and shoes on................they know, we are going for a 4 mile walk.......they absolutely love it...........[]

Well now you have to wonder what it is about a clicker that brings on the rebellion?

I think with me it is because Zeus is not food motivated like other dogs. I didn't think it was even worth trying.

It was a long slow process, but  we did it. I actually believe he enjoys food more if he works for it.

A big thank you from us both to Jones

Snownose:  Same here.  My dogs love to walk.  They even know which jacket is the "winter walking jacket".

  I actually believe he enjoys food more if he works for it.

 
Same here.  Am I alone in noticing they seem to work harder for the click-treat than the treat on it's own?  Or am I imagining it?

Snownose: Same here. My dogs love to walk. They even know which jacket is the "winter walking jacket".

 
Hahaha, there is only "A" jacket involved here.........lol, be it a winter or a lighter jacket....just the noise, and the dogs go nuts.......not even handing out treats matches that excitement.[]

Well now you have to wonder what it is about a clicker that brings on the rebellion?

I think with me it is because Zeus is not food motivated like other dogs. I didn't think it was even worth trying.

It was a long slow process, but we did it. I actually believe he enjoys food more if he works for it.

That's why I started another thread - "Question about clicker training"