Labels and Dogs

Agree very much. Dogs live in the moment and that's how we should approach our interaction with them. It's hard to get past our human need to classify, name, justify, apologize, second guess, and make excuses (I'm bad for that). But none of it is useful to the dog. As my mentor says, "Deal with what's there NOW and move on."

Well to be able to help a certain behavior we need to know what that behavior is and where it comes from
 
We cant treat a dominant dog the same way we would with a fearful dog right? i think i'm not understanding because the answer is as clar as that []

Well to be able to help a certain behavior we need to know what that behavior is and where it comes from

We cant treat a dominant dog the same way we would with a fearful dog right? i think i'm not understanding because the answer is as clar as that

 
I am not sure that is what Anne is saying...I read her post to say that we shouldn't continue to classify a dog that way...instead focusing on steps...so for example my Prudence is a spook, but instead of me labeling her as that...I instead work toward changing her behaviors in steps. Prudence is NOT a spook in all instances. Infact in the house she is dominant and confident, but that behavior changes once outside.     

Exactly. We don't "treat a dominant dog" in any particular way, we just react to what he does. Like Eddie - he's so shut down he won't make any human contact. I'm not wasting any time saying, "Is he shy, dominant, undersocialized, stubborn?" I have to get him to a point where he'll offer SOME behavior to work with, and he understands me enough so we can exchange information about those behaviors.

I might start forming some theories about his past, his personality, etc, but I'm only human. And my experience with dogs has shown me that a dog can show behavior consistent with a "type" of personality one moment, and suddenly act the exact opposite a moment later. It's part of the learning process for dogs. Where would I be if I based my gameplans strictly on tailor-made treatments for one personality type or a single ongoing motivation?

a dog can show behavior consistent with a "type" of personality one moment, and suddenly act the exact opposite a moment later.

 
[sm=rofl.gif]  You just described my Prudence perfectly... she goes from confident and assertive, to a trembling and quaking wreck, to goofy and playfull all within minutes...at least she keeps us on our toes! []

ORIGINAL: espencer

Well to be able to help a certain behavior we need to know what that behavior is and where it comes from

We cant treat a dominant dog the same way we would with a fearful dog right? i think i'm not understanding because the answer is as clar as that []

I think that what we are saying is that a dog is neither fearful nor dominant in all circumstances.  So, if a dog exhibits fear of something, we simply deal with that fearful behavior at that moment.  If he does something we perceive as dominant, such as growling when asked to move, then we deal with that behavior to correct it. The point is that by dealing with the behaviors, we slowly change the dog.  But, by classifying him as "dominant" or "fearful", we risk making each label a self-fulfilling prophecy. 
When you rescue a dog, you usually have no way to know what happened to him in the past, or what causes his present behavior, but you can certainly start from square one dealing with each issue as it comes up, modifying the things you don't like, and encouraging (or, reinforcing/rewarding) the behavior you like.

We humans have placed a lot of labels on dogs. Are we really helping dogs by doing this, or is it really as Karen Pryor suggests? She says that behavior is only behavior, and if we concentrate on shaping or modifying a dog's behavior, that is enough.[...]Why are we so consumed with the label "trees" that we are unable to see the "forest", our dog's cluster of behaviors?

 
I agree that labeling the dog is unhelpful and obscures the view, but I don't think I'll go so far as to say that we should acknowledge behaviors only. I think that classical conditioning and behavior modification are wonderful approaches to obedience training, but as to owning, managing, and caring for a dog I like a more holistic view. I don't wish to label my dog but I would say that if my dog is behaving a certain way, I do want to understand why - what are the thought processes and/or emotions behind that behavior? So, perhaps it's not constructive to label my dog as Shy or Timid, but if he's frantically barking at a man in a tall hat, it's not enough for me to get him to stop barking... I want to acknowledge that the tall hat is making him nervous and remove my dog/the man/the hat from the picture at that moment, to address the emotion behind the behavior.
 
But yes, again I do agree that labeling the whole dog is unhelpful, and can even be harmful if that label becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy... or in some cases is just woefully inaccurate and skews training badly. I also think that eliminating such labels can help to defuse the negative effects of our own human emotions in training... for example, what good it can do to discard all the stress that comes from labeling your dog as Aggressive....

I don't disagree with that at all, but I don't think it does us any good to speculate about *why* a dog behaves in a certain way when we don't have an obvious trigger before us, like the guy in the scary hat.  I am also fascinated by what causes behavior, but I'm not interested in giving a dog a life sentence as a "fearful dog" because some whack job guy erupted out of the bushes wearing a Dr. Seuss hat or something! []
To borrow from another thread, just because someone is afraid of snakes, doesn't mean she isn't pretty fearless in other aspects of her life.  That's all I was really trying to bring up.  Even if a dog does something demanding, or "dominant", doesn't mean he is that way in all situations, or that we must try to subordinate him in all situations when normal dogs wouldn't do so either.  It's the "skewing" of the training that you mention that really bothers me, because it often doesn't solve the real problem, and can cause such harm to dogs and their owners.

Oh this is a good one. It is so hard for me to live in the moment although my dogs are teaching me that, thank God!
I told you about Trixie w/ her barking at people, for those of you who don't know Trixie is debarked ( I didn't do it) and she's little and she's cute and she has a non stop tail, I believe she uses that to express herself as I have never seen a dog this waggy.
She will run up to people, known or strangers and except for one person that she adores, she will "not'" bark, while wagging her tail. Now if she could make noise I think people would give her space but because she can't, they don't, they usually stick their hand in her face for her to smell it. aaagghhh . I am really not worried about her ever biting anyone but I am not so naive to believe that it's impossible she has teeth.
So I got scaredy dog, and did everything it said to do,although I had some comprehension problems, I can't remember where right now, but nada.
Maybe it's me and I am dense, but it probably is because I am doing exactly what Anne said, I am skewing the training. Anne help my girl.

If she's running up to people, and not attempting to bark, chances are that you don't currently have a "scaredy dog".  If she is fearful of people's advances, even if it's an extended hand, then she may be.  But, training a dog to focus on the handler is not a bad thing regardless, so please don't think you have "skewed the training".  []

What a great thread.

Sometimes the dog gets lost in the labels that we give them.  As humans though, we have a propensity to label, classify, and file everything-so I understand where you're coming from in this.

If we don't classify then are we saying that there are "No Bad Dogs" only bad behaviors?  And since behaviors can be modified through various techniques-all dogs have the ability to be "good?"

If we don't classify then are we saying that there are "No Bad Dogs" only bad behaviors? And since behaviors can be modified through various techniques-all dogs have the ability to be "good?"

 
I like how you worded that Ed!

not attempting to bark

Sorry Anne, when I say "not" barking I mean she is barking but of course it's silent. It's funny about having her attention, I have it, so much  so, she makes me feel bad, she could be sleeping and I walk by and she's up and alert, and outside, she has a wait and stay that you would be proud of, but when people come up or are out in their yard that's what she does and she's not having fun. So I've tried walking over to where she is looking telling her "Ok, I've got it" and that really seems to work. But that was/ is, because I was "thinking it's that she feels she needs to protect us" "then I thought it was she was scared."but when people walk up to us, different story.
She is so happy here and that thrills me,  I love seeing her so happy, when I took her the breeder's husband said any life you give her will be better than this, and they are good to their dogs. But this is the one time, in her day she is not the happiest dog alive. She's 10 now I want her to enjoy every minute.

If we don't classify then are we saying that there are "No Bad Dogs" only bad behaviors? And since behaviors can be modified through various techniques-all dogs have the ability to be "good?"

Whoop there it is!