Training collar?

Also, I'm guessing some folks on the board might have alternatives to using a training collar with short corrections. We are planning to use the methods described in the Monks of New Skete book at this time. Would love to hear other opinions on this.

 
Clicker training. Highly recommended!
 

How soon is a puppy ready for a training collar? Our Samoyed pup is nearly 12 weeks now and we are thinking about whether it's time to start more formal training for her. She does great on sit and down commands now, but has a heck of a time pulling on a leash when we go for short walks. Is 12 weeks too early?

 
As far as I know there are very few trainers who would put a training collar on a dog younger than 6 months. If you really need an anti-pull device, a no-pull harness would be a far better idea. But with a dog that young and malleable, try just training first. "Make like a tree" is the nickname for the most popular method of training loose-leash walking. You can search the forums for past discussions on it... or maybe someone less lazy than me will just repost. []

I would really only resort to a training collar of any sort with an older dog on whom prositive training didn't work...  Just MHO...  But, in any case, I would certainly not put a training collar on a puppy younger than 6 months.
 
I will try to succinctly give the "make like a tree" alternative - hopefully others will chime in with their experiences...
 
I used "make like a tree" to train the loose leash walk.  Every time the leash is taught - you make like a tree - you essentially just stop and "make like a tree" - the walk stops, you do not move.  The second the dog comes back towards you and the leash is loose, praise and keep moving...  you will need to start from no distractions and move slowly to increasing distractions (start inside, then the yard, then around the block etc).  Expect to spend a lot of times standing still at first and totally ignoring pulling jumping etc.  But, dogs get it eventually (and ours is a rescue that we started with this at a year - he was a HUGE puller)...  Good luck!!  Let us know if you have questions and keep us posted on progress!   Good for you for looking for alternatives to a harsher method!!

I originally trained the New Skete way and wound up with a dog who behaved on a training collar but not on a flat collar. He had to pretty much be retrained when we moved him to a flat collar. He got, as they say, "collar smart".
 
I also highly recommend a positive training method such as clicker training or lure/reward training. The great thing about it is that it's never "too early" because there's no potentially harmful training device involved. You can start as soon as your pup comes home.
 
Now is the time to teach loose-lead walking using positive methods. Train a dog to do that now and you won't be dealing with a bigger and strong dog whos's gotten to practice bad habits for months later.
 
I really recommend the book The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller to learn the basics of positive training such as clicker training.

Cool, thanks for the suggestions.

Being new to this it is not always clear which of the various methods (training collar, clicker, etc.) are compatible with each other. Conceptually the idea of positive reinforcement makes sense in many situations, but having read books that suggest what appear to be a combination of positive reinforcement _and_ corrections in certain cases (e.g., leash pops) it's hard to tease them apart.

I have already been using the 'make like a tree' method on our informal walks so far - it has had limited success but I guess we're making some progress (as long as I am consistent).

Would a Gentle Leader headcollar be a better way to start her off on walks instead of a regular collar?

Do folks that do clicker training use it exclusively (that is - no training collar at all)? Or can one combine clicker training with other methods?

Thanks again!

Do folks that do clicker training use it exclusively (that is - no training collar at all)? Or can one combine clicker training with other methods?

You can combine them. The people I've seen combine them, in person, did it VERY wrong. You don't really need a training collar on a young puppy, anyways. Their brains are so soft (that's why their heads are so hard!) [] that you can shape them to walk any way you want.

Do folks that do clicker training use it exclusively (that is - no training collar at all)? Or can one combine clicker training with other methods?

Once your dog is 6 months old, if you want to start using a training collar you can still do clicker training along with it. However, and lately I'm almost afraid to say around here this lest I be accused of belonging to a cult, leash pops are a very difficult thing to do correctly, and I feel they're unnecessary when there are better, easier, gentler, more fool-proof ways of training pretty much anything, including loose leash walking. (See the current "positive punishment" thread for a conversation on that.) I would personally never issue a leash pop with a training collar.
 
For an 11-12 week old puppy you really can't expect much on leash walks. At that point just wearing a collar and leash is progress. Make sure your training expectations are realistic, depending on the age and (for lack of a better term) skill level of your dog at any given time.

Training collar is simply another word for "forceful tool".  It is my opinion that collars, leashes, harnesses, should not be used "for" training at all. There are other methods out there for training, such as clicker training, in which the only tools you need is a clicker, and a reward your dog likes (usually treats, but can also be other things too!).

I do not use any sort of collar or leash for training. Think of a collar or leash as a safety net, something you use on your dog for the dog's safety, in case anything should happen and the dog does not respond to your gestures. When I train something, I don't use a leash or collar if possible, not until it's been trained and I take it on the road. And even then, I don't use the collar or leash to train, but rather use it as a safety net to keep the dog with me in a safe manner. When training conformation-style heeling, I trained the entire sequence with the dog off-leash, with no collar on. Only AFTER it was trained did I actually attach that leash, and even then I attached the leash at my waist, NOT my hand, so as not to use the leash as a guide, but rather as just that - an attachment, to keep the dog by my side in case the need arose.

Leashes, collars of any types - even buckle collars, harnesses, they are there to keep your dog safe. They aren't there to be used AS a training tool. The only collars used as training "tools" are those that inflict pain via positive punishment. Even gentle leaders and no-pull harnesses do not "teach" behaviours - they simply prevent behaviours from happening. They are management tools. I do have a no-pull harness (not the constrictive kind, but the kind that attaches with the O-ring at the front of the dog's chest), that I use on occasion, in situations where I might not be able to train at that time and feel the need to use it, although it's been a long time since I've needed to use it. I also use it on long-distance walks in case the dog ever for any reason bolted on her tracking line I did not want her to hit the end of that leash with force on her neck.

I suppose the end point to consider is - these "tools" should be used as just that - management tools. They shouldn't, if possible, become your permanent solution, only training can deal with that. It's fine and great to walk your dog on a GL, Halti, or no-pull harness when needed
, but the second your dog is not wearing it one day she'll know, and she'll go right back to doing what it was she did beforehand. The exact same thing happens with prong and choke collar use - the dog listens great while the collar is on, but when it's off, all bets are off. Of course that led to the e-collar revolution with punishment-on-the-go, but that's a whole other can of worms. The point is, don't confuse management with training, as they are not one and the same. There's nothing wrong with management, but it's not a training solution, if that's what you are looking for. If you just want management, as I know some people do (it's not what I would do or recommend), then your best bet is to go with a front-clip no-pull harness, or a GL/Halti if your dog likes it (not all dogs come to accept this tool's use well).

Kim MacMillan

I have seen some people combine a training collar with 'clicker training' but that's not really clicker training, that's training where you sometimes use a clicker. Different, and in my view kind of silly. The whole point of the clicker is to open up a line of communication between you and the dog so that applying pain or discomfort to get your point across isn't necessary.

When I train at home, unless I'm actually teaching walking on a leash, the dogs don't wear leashes or even collars most of the time. They typically don't wear a collar inside the house (the tags are jingly and wake me up at night if they get up and shake) and all commands are given by voice and hand-signal, not touching them in any way. It's an interesting challenge to work on, can you get your dog to move around an area where you want him to while he's not wearing a collar?

As I say, I've taught leash-manners the "traditional" way with training collar and leash pops, and I've taught it on a flat buckle collar with a clicker and positive reinforcement and by far the latter gave me better results, faster, and that actually remained with the dog over time instead of deteriorating when we transitioned to another collar. The dog I trained only with the clicker has a variety of leashes and collars (sometimes I walk him on flat buckle collar, sometimes I walk him on tracking harness, sometimes on a 1 foot lead, sometimes on a 4 foot lead and sometimes I have him on a 30 foot tracking lead), and he retains his manners in each case. His performance of leash manners is based not on a piece of equipment but upon communication between myself and him, and that's something you can never take off.

Sometimes you get a dog who is so strong and so determined to pull, that you do need a stop-gap management strategy like a no-pull harness or head-halter to be able to begin work, but the goal of these devices (even stated in the literature that comes with them) is to allow you to begin the process of transitioning off these devices and onto a flat collar. They are not meant to be worn for life.

I only use a training collar when my wife (and sometimes me, weak knees) is walking my dog, and it's as a safety net. Simple mathematics, 140 lb dog, 105lb wife, for the most part the dog behaves very well during walks, but I'm not taking chances there.

Maybe I'm dumb or having a case of the dummies, but what is considered a training collar?

Choker collars are often referred to as "training collars". They're also called "check collars" sometimes. But all the same thing.

Thanks for all the replies - this is starting to 'click' (no pun intended)

We are at the point now where we are going to start transitioning to informal training to more formal approaches. It seems that we have two (possibly non-exclusive) paths: corrective methods based on positive punishment, and positive reinforcement methods. Before we start down either path we are trying to understand how they compare, and of course to what extent they can or should be combined. Mind you we have only read the Skete and CM books at this time which both focus on the use of a training collar and corrections. Houndlove, I ordered the book you recommended and will check it out as I'm eager to learn more about clicker training.

As an amateur, it is easy to confuse the use of a training collar (i.e., positive punishment via leash pops etc.) for conditioning behaviors, and solutions that are intended to prevent the dog from pulling (e.g., headcollars). It is also encouraging to hear that either of these solutions is really intended to be temporary.

I have read on other threads that clicker training is very effective for loose-leash training so I think we'll try it out. Jones - good to get my expectations set correctly as the pup is still very young!

I would really only resort to a training collar of any sort with an older dog on whom prositive training didn't work...

 
Me too, definately.
 

  I used "make like a tree" to train the loose leash walk.  Every time the leash is taught - you make like a tree - you essentially just stop and "make like a tree" - the walk stops, you do not move

 
Me too again, well nearly.  I turn and go the other way - some people find this more effective, I just prefer to keep moving because I don't like stopping all the time.  This is effective if you are consistent and do it EVERY TIME you walk - which means you're a little late coming in on this one because it ought to have been happening from the very 1st walk.  Pulling has become ingrained now, so expect this to take longer and be patient. 

I never use corrections. I use a lot of Chris Bach's philosophy when starting the Third Way-Don't teach the dog what NOT to do, but rather WHAT to do. I have a Border Collie pup who constantly tries to herd the cat, and our trainer told us to use the can on her. Me, being totally skeptical on diversives like that, was curious to try it out. I filled an empty V8 jug with a ton of coins and when she went after the cat I gave it a quick flick and it scared the living beans outta the poor dear! I felt so bad...if I slightly shake the medecine bottle trying to get out my pills for a sinus infection, she shoots across the room. So now, I'm building up a solid recall and walk away (like a leave it, except she leaves it and comes over by me) so when she even looks at the cat I tell her to walk away and she comes into the same room. I'm starting to work in positive interaction. whenever she goes to the cat and interacts positively, she gets free reign of the house (actually, the rooms she's aloud in) if she is getting a little snarky and barking and growling, she gets a walk away. If Joy puts her mouth on him, she gets to be my umbilical cord. Leash is loop into my belt, and she's now my black and white tornado shadow[] We did this for a few weeks and she won't touch the cat now. Point? Instead of correcting your dog, teaching the proper behavior works SOO much better. As for the Monks of New Skete, I hate to bad mouth them, but they're basically stuck up in the mountains and have no perspective on what real training is........

This same trainer who "claims" he's "positive reinforcement" strongly recommends chain or prong ("pinch") collars for all problem dogs. We have a 6 year old border collie in our  class. He was a "problem jumper" who jumped at certain stimuli. He was perscribed with a prong. We were mat training. The dog is led onto it's mat, and it can't come off.  If it comes off all the way, it's popped and put back on. The trainer comes up to the owner, asks to borrow Charlie, and says for us to look. He put Charlie on the mat, and he immediatly walked off. He starts popping him SOO hard he starts screaming and crying and looking to his mommy. Charlie was resisting, balking, and backing up, basically asking why this is happening. Over the dogs screamiing, he said in a calm voice that this was the sound of the collar working.  Me and the owner (BC owners are very protective of eachothers dogs) were crying and telling him to stop.  He looked at us surprised and stopped. The dog looked at the owner, the trainer, and then the owner and started to pee and ran behind me. His mom took him back to the mat and put him on, where he curled up into a small ball and refused to get up, even when released. Then the trainer started popping him OFF the mat, bewildered why he wasn't getting up. THe dog would only let me touch it, and his mom had me bring him to the car while she held Joy.


Prongs and choke chains can severly damage a relationship is trained the wrong way.