Need some more advice........

    • Gold Top Dog

    Need some more advice........

    Hey gang.......I know Ive asked before but Dixie is not improving and I need some more advice.
    Dixie has been growling since we adopted her from the no kill shelter at 6 weeks old.  Now its down to ONLY GROWLING WHEN WE PICK HER UP.  She used to growl all the time, but with making her work for everything she only growls now when someone picks her up.  I have my three oldest girls help me take her out for potty breaks (ages 16, 10, and 8) and they all know she will growl and each of us when we get her will say "no growl" then when she stops say "good girl" and praise her and take her outside.  The reason we carry her is because we have a gate down the basement stairs and its just easier to pick her up and carry her out.  Sometimes she will walk and we will take her out.  Also when we pick her up for bath time she growls.  So the only time she seems to growl now is when we pick her up.  I dont think we are hurting her and she stops really quick, BUT I worry about why she is growling and what we may have to worry about when she gets older.  She is only 16 weeks right now.
    Tonight my 10 year old picked her up and brought her to me for a bath and the girls said that she growled and snarled (showing her teeth) which is new.  She has not showed her teeth to us before.
    I have worked hard with Dixie to teach her how to be a nice young lady and Im not sure what Im missing here.  She has to work for everything........to eat, to go out the door, for treats etc.  Daisy and her get along well and dont seem to have any problems between the two of them and Daisy NEVER growls so shes not learning it there.  So what in the world do I do to stop this behavior??  Before shes too big or gets mean with it...........She doesnt nip or anything when she growls although by the sound from her youd think she was going too.
    Ive thought about not picking her up anymore...........obviously this annoys her.  BUT there are some times when I HAVE to.  But there are also times when I can pick her up and she wont growl, although Id say 8 out of 10 times she growls.
    And this is absolutely the ONLY time she growls........when she is being picked up.
     
    Ok pile on the advice. 
     
    Oh and my kids all treat the dog the right way......very gently and very good with all the pets in our home.  So thats not an issue.  LIke I said Dixie came to us growling over everything.  ANd ALLof the growling has stopped EXCEPT for when she is picked up.  I want her to know IM boss and not her in that area, but I dont want to mess her up anymore ya know??!!!
     
    Ok fire away......Thanks!!!!  Feel free to ask any other questions that you need to ask to understand fully.[:)]
    • Silver
    Question:  Are you saying "no growl" BEFORE she does it or after she starts growling?
    • Gold Top Dog
    Well, I know this is exactly what you don't want to hear but - stop picking up your dog. [:)] Things do not have to be physically painful for a dog to make them very uncomfortable. Being hauled into the air just isn't a normal thing for a dog to experience, and for some it makes them nervous, insecure, frightened or just plain uncomfortable. I think you're just pushing her limits too far by doing this all the time. To me this is another "my friend Maude is nice all the time except when people grab her boobs" scenarios. I have a small dog and the number of times when I have to physically pick him up are quite few and far between. By 16 wks he was quite capable of negotiating stairways, and I would lead him to the bath and only then pick him up over the ledge of the tub. In particular your kids should definitely NOT be picking up Dixie, because they can get hurt and so can she.
     
    The problem with correcting growling is that you eliminate the behavior but not the emotion. This is a band-aid solution with potentially dangerous consequences. Even if you stop her from growling she will still feel uncomfortable about being picked up all the time. And anytime you suppress an animal's attempt to show fear/anger, you run the risk of having it come up another way - like by biting.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Lyndal,
    Hummmm ya know we say it after she is growling...or during the growl.........Good point .  We should maybe say it as we are picking her up???Or even before she is lifted off the floor??
    • Gold Top Dog
    I guess I don't fully understand why you "have" to pick her up sometimes.  I know earlier in your post you said it's easier for you, but then you actually said the word "have".  I agree with Jones in that you shouldn't pick her up.  What if she was a dog of size that you couldn't pick up?  Answer is easy....you wouldn't. 
     
    Clearly, if she's growling while doing this particular action, I would refrain from doing it.  I wouldn't teach her not to growl in general for the reasons stated by Jones.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'm afraid I'm gonna agree with the advice you've already gotten.  Stop picking her up and stop absolutely allowing the kids to pick her up.  Growling is not something I would want to totally eliminate either.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Please, Please, please do NOT allow your baby girls to pick the dog up anymore. In what better way can the dog tell or warn you that it does not like to be picked up? If any of the girls got bitten it would only be your fault (i'm sorry, I feel like a big meany saying that) but as the story goes the dog would get blamed and deemed vicious. You hear stories liek this all the time "ooh neighbors killer dog rips babies face off" what they dont say is that the baby was yanking the dogs tail, screaming in its face, or something else highly offensive in canine language. I even know plenty of cats that will claw your eyes out if you attempt to pick it up.
    Bottom line is the girls shluld be taught to not pick the dog up in addition to the basib kid/dog laws. make it very clear to them to never take the toys away from the dog, dont scream in its face, dont go near it when the dog is eating, or suprise it when its sleeping. The only reason I'mconcerned is because you posted this in the aggression section.......your dog does not deserve to be labeled vicious any more then if you slapped a stranger for grabbin your bottom in public. The man wouldnt be supported if he said "that lady is vicious" cause you slapped him. He would be in the wrong for not using manners. It is hard to train a dog but even harder to train us humans! =)
    • Gold Top Dog
    While I can see the need to pick a dog up onto an examination table, or into a tub for grooming, I don't, for the life of me, understand why it is necessary to repeatedly pick a dog up otherwise.  And, I think you are making a colossal mistake having young children do so.  jones' post makes a lot of sense.  I would listen to that advice.
    If your pup has been growling since the age of six weeks, and we assume that you have had her that long, then she may not have the same level of bite inhibition that a dog taken later from its litter, so your children may well incur a bite if your dog warns repeatedly and they don't heed.  If she is curling her lip as an "add on", then she is slowly escalating - not what you want.
    Stop disciplining her for growling - get your kids to leave her alone.  If she needs bathing, you are the adult and should manage that.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks for all the advice everyone!! I do appreciate it. 
    As for picking her up........my kids help take the dog out.  We have a baby gate that is in the kitchen that is VERY hard to take off and put back.  In fact the only ones that can get it back on are my husband, my daughter (15) and myself.  So for the younger girls, ages 10 and 8, to take out the dogs they have to lift them and carry them to the side door way so they can go out.  We can climb over the gate but the dogs cant.
    If my children are going to help with the dog....and Dixie still goes out every two to three hours, and they ARE going to help.  Then she has to be lifted over the gate.  Daisy our beagle is lifted and has been and does fine.  So I really think there is a way to train Dixie not to growl when doing this act.  Now I have been working with her to not growl for the past few days and I have seen improvement.  She is not growling at all as much as she was.  So Im going to continue to work with her and see what happens before I give up on teaching her not to growl when picked up and just assuming that should be acceptable from her.  Obviously she doesnt like it all the time, but alot of the time she has no complaints with it.  I just really feel like she should be able to learn not to growl when we do that.  Im not telling her she can never growl.  She growls all the time in playing with Daisy and that is totally fine, but I DONT want her growling EVER with myself or my family.  If she wants to growl at a stranger or a strange dog or whatever, then thats different and I get the reason behind it.  But with us I just dont see why I cant work with her and train her NOT to growl when she is picked up.  She will continue to need to be picked up .  If its for the vet or the clinic or a bath or whatnot, so If I decide to just never pick her up and then we go do these things and she growls when I pick her up then thats OK??
    I just have a problem with the comment on Im the adult and I need to take care of the dog in situations.  For bathing/walking etc, whenever we have issues with Dixie.  I work with her but I fully expect my children to help care for all the pets in our home and with each other.  As for bathing the dogs that job mainly falls on my 15 year old.  I do help as well but she enjoys it and is grown enough to handle that.  I shouldnt have to accept that my dog is going to growl and just deal with it.  I need to teach her that in that instant thats not acceptable.
    If it continues after working with her Im going to call the vet later this week.  Just to rule out any possible injury.  But I really dont think thats the case.  I do understand if my dog really doesnt like being lifted.  I get thats an unnatural position for her and she feels helpless or whatnot.
    I just want to be able to lift my dog and hold her or do whatever without the growling.  I think working with her in that area and dealing with whatever issues she has is a better move than just letting her be and then when the time comes and she growls to just let it go.  I have had instances where Im sitting on the floor and she will crawl onto my lap and I gently pull her up to give her a love and she will low growl.  Its over in an instant and she will wag her tail and kiss me, but she has still done that. With my working with her we have not had that happen in a few weeks.  Now with working with her the last week or few days whatever.........she has had no issues with us picking her up to love her, now its just to go out.  So I think with time and patience she can overcome this issue.  She is a very good dog and so loving. 
    I hope this all makes sense and seriously I do appreciate all your advice.  Im not being mean or anything in my feelings as I type this. 
    So please dont anyone become upset with what Ive typed and slam me.
    Thanks
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    I certainly won't slam you, just offer my opinion and you can take it or leave it. I just think that there are certain things we do with/to dogs that they don't like or that are considered rude in the dog world, which they usually tolerate in small/rare doses, but will become frustrated/irritable about if we overdo it - this can include picking them up, hugging them (for some dogs), taking things (food, toys) out of their mouths, etc. Sometimes I hear people say "It's easier if I [do this with my dog] except that she growls/bites/fights/runs," and I have to wonder, is it really easier? In your situation, would it be easier to buy a quick-release baby gate that everyone can undo and pass through on foot?
     
    I know that everyone makes a personal decision about how much their kids, and their dogs for that matter, can handle. I would never presume to make that choice for someone I don't know, whose kids I don't know. But I think it's wise to err on the safe side. Just last night a friend of mine said he let his 4 yr old walk their dog - the dog spotted a cat or whatever and bolted, and the child holding his leash fell down and broke his nose. Accidents happen even with the nicest dog and the best behaved child, if that child is not supervised and not physically capable of handling the dog when the dog jumps/bites/runs/you name it.
    • Gold Top Dog
    The problem is that you have come for advice, but you don't seem to want to take it.  That's fine, as long as you understand that you are taking a colossal risk. 
    I'm not slamming you, since I think you simply don't understand dog behavior sufficiently to know why what you intend to do is a bad idea. It is NEVER a good idea to train a dog not to growl at anyone.  By doing so, you remove the early warning system!  A dog that reaches its threshold of tolerance will go directly to a bite then.  And, in your admitted stubborness about this issue, you will have created a dog that bites kids - and you will probably end up with a dead dog.  No kill shelters and rescues don't accept dogs that bite children, as a rule.
    So, the only option for the dog you will undoubtedly want to get rid of at that point, is the kill shelter.  Normally, a dog that bites kids go directly to the dead bin - even if they tell you otherwise.
    I understand that you want the convenience of having the kids be able to help.  But, I try to tell parents all the time...you are not there to force your kids to be responsible.  You're there to model responsibility.  For gosh sake, can't you arrange to get a baby gate that's easy for the kids to open instead of putting them at risk to get bitten????    And, that would enable them to still help care for the dog.  If you continue to aggress against the dog, because that's what it is if he perceives it that way, then you will push and push until he has no option.
    Sometimes, I think we humans get so wrapped up in the "control" issue, that we make errors in judgment that could salvage a situation. 
    I hope you'll rethink this. [8|][:)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I like the way you and Jones phrased it. Let me see if I can paraphrase. Training does not get rid of instinct, it redirects it, either for good or bad. So, a dog trained to not growl will then not growl, thereby giving a warning signal. But that doesn't stop the escalation to biting. It simply removed one of othe warning signs.
     
    Honestly, I never thought there would be a need to consider this, perhaps because of the way I was raised. Even though I hardly had a dog of mine, I was taught not only how to behave around dogs but that I would be disciplined, sometimes severly, for misbehaving. That is, personally, I am an example of all the yank and crank corporal punishment whippings, "my way or the highway" school of discipline. As my mom once said, "I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it." Although that sounds harsh, I did learn respect for animals. Don't hit them or antagonize them, don't stick your hands in their food, just as you wouldn't stick it in another human's food. And I can't think of a time when we played with our grandparents' pets when we weren't under supervision. I kicked a dog once, when I was little. I realize now that it was acting out against psychological stresses from the babysitter we had. It was their dog that I kicked. I did not cause injury but I could have. By the time I was done getting spankings from everyone, I never kicked a dog again. Being under stress did not give me the right to behave as I did. Did I suffer a strict physical upbringing with plenty of mistakes? Oh yeah. But that does not absolve me from manners and etiquette and the proper treatment of animals, as best as I can learn.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks again everyone!!!
    I probablly am being stubborn about Dixie and her not growling at being picked up, and I do see what your all saying.  Give me overnight to think it over some more.  I do see why you wouldnt want her to not growl and give warning.  I really do.  And truthfully it wouldnt be such a big deal to get an easier gate.  Im just really thinking she can learn that to growl at that isent appropriate.  Just like she has learned to not growl with her food.  She had terrible food aggression when we first got her.  Now she doesnt do it anymore.  With hand feeding her and slowly teaching her that its OK no one is going to steal her food she has gotten over that.  I still work with her just to keep her from going backwards but it was done........no more growling.  So why cant that work with the picking up??
    I guess thats why Im confused with this way of thinking.  I do understand that you want that warning rather than to just bite, but you wouldnt let your dog continue on with food aggression??  So why is this OK. 
    Say we do walk her out for now on.......no more picking up, but then we go to bath her and have to pick her up, or take her to the vet and have to lift her to the table and she growls.  Thats OK?  See my confusion??
     
    Ron2 you totally lost me with your comparison.....lol[:D]  None of us have every treated the dogs in that way nor would they.  My children are very well behaved and would never dream to kick an animal, any animal.  I know they are not perfect, who is, but Im not sure why that related to the subject.  I do get the beginning of your post though.  As others have stated the same thing.[:D]
     
    Thanks again everyone!!
    • Gold Top Dog
    So why cant that work with the picking up??

     
    Perhaps you can desensitize her to being picked up, but it is certainly not a task for children, who could easily be bitten.  The first thing you must do is to determine if the dog is feeling pain when she's picked up.  That could take a visit to the vet, x-rays, other diagnostics, and you maybe still wouldn't know. 
    If she is being difficult for a behavioral reason, you can call in a professional behaviorist who will assess the situation and give you a protocol to follow.
     
    Your children may be very well behaved 99% of the time, but they are still children, and some dogs are disconcerted by kids' way of picking them up, or other things they may do.  It isn't a criticism of your particular kids, just kids in general should not be completely responsible for the care of any dog, and they have difficulty with certain tasks (as seen by dogs) when they are too young.  It's one reason why so many kids under 10 get bitten.  That seems to improve the older they get.
     
    Also, if you have a dog that had food aggression, but is now ok with humans around her food dish, please do not assume that she will be equally good about a higher value item than kibble.  We often find that owners whose dogs are fine with dog food will rip their arm off for a marrow bone.  Go slowly and don't "test" a dog who will not relinquish a valuable item.  Get professional help.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ron2 you totally lost me with your comparison

     
    I'll try it again. I was raised not to hit or pick up dogs or mess with them while they are eating or poke at them or otherwise physically abuse them, give them their space. I was taught this, as well as everything else, at the end of a belt, backhand, stirring spoon, peach tree switch, whatever was handy. Meaning it sunk in. The one time I did abuse a dog, retribution was swift and overpowering and painful. And I never did a wrong thing towards animals again, ever. I was somewhat unaware that people would need to know something that I was raised with. It's not a judgement of you, it's just a different world than the one I was born in. OTOH, the only time I help Shadow up is when he wants to lay in my lap and can't get his back end up, if I'm in the computer chair. Then he doesn't mind, I get rewarded with kisses.