Ups & Downs, Ins & Outs of NILIF

Where that goes wrong, I think, is that in interpreting this, some owners end up rewarding a dog for doing SIT while it's standing on its toes with excitement, or, treating a dog while grooming when its overall state is tense or defensive... It is a good way to start working on behavioral issues, but I think if you never raise your expectations and keep on rewarding the action, you might be nurturing the undesired behavior underneath. Wonder if that's why NILIF is not effective for some people...

 
I couldn't understand a dog standing on his toes while in a sit. But the second example of treating a dog while grooming is not necessarily NILIF. If the dog is defensive and tense then yes, treating at that point might reward the reactivity.
 
And perhaps my difference with this statement is due to my own way of thinking. My way of thinking and a $1.50 will get you a Diet Coke.[] A problem with NILIF is not in the system but in a person's application of it. I've butted up against my own foul-ups, even with clicker training. Rather than assume the method was wrong, I re-read some critical paragraphs and saw where I, not the method, made a mistake. IMHO, it's not so much that the sit is critical as it is that the dog is listening to you that is important. So, in a public scene, I call Shadow to sit. Even if it was only for a moment, I reward that because he was listening to me in the face of all the distraction. Same with NILIF. Whatever behavior you command is great but the fact that the dog is follwing your lead is truly important. Not to mention the more proper behavior we desire that reduces friction and power struggles.
 

IMHO, it's not so much that the sit is critical as it is that the dog is listening to you that is important.

 
I agree with that Ron!  In my mind that is what is going on when we practice NILIF... Bubblegum is listening to me.  She is always reminded that she must listen to me.

I also love how felxible it is. You choose the level your dogs need. We don't sit at every doorway or NILIF just for petting and attention most of the time because these guys don't need that kind of structure

That is very true. Most of the time, we don't have to follow too much protocol around here. The dogs automatically sit for their meals, leashes, etc. and it becomes rather unconscious. We don't expect them to perform something to have access to furniture and in return they aren't obnoxious with us or each other.

But....recently we dog sat for a few days. A very nice, very young dog. There were no problems with the dogs getting along with each other, but the whole dynamic was changed and all of a sudden it seemed like there were dogs everywhere all wanting things. We basically did a three day NILF mini-boot camp of dogs will wait at doorways etc. and harmony returned. Now that she's gone, mine are slowly returning to the prior levels of freedom.
 
ETA: I like Suzanne Clothier's explanation of comparing it to a parent asking a child to do chores and earning privledges for doing chores. Not because it is necessary for the parent to get the work done, but because they want the child to grow up to be a good, contributing member of society.

When I first got Harley, at 9 months old, she was a little out of control.  I would tell her to do something and she would bark at me.  And when I walked her, she would jump on me and try to back out of her collar and leash.  I've been watching CM for a long time, so I tried the alpha roll, that didn't help at all.  I came here and someone told me about NILIF.  I started using is with her and there was such a big difference in her.  I felt like she was listening better, and becoming better behaved.  I was pretty strict with it, but now I have her sit before I throw something (which she pretty much does automatically) and before she gets a treat.

Very interesting post, Xerxes. I had never thought it through to that extent. Louis J. Sheehan, Esquire

What I like about NILIF is the same thing I like about any other method of training I use - that it's a tool in my toolbox, there to be picked up and used when it is most appropriate for the situation.

For new behaviours, I clicker train Ben...but I don't find clicker the most useful tool when reminding Ben of behaviours he already knows. Recently Ben went through a stage...adolescence? Me being too relaxed? I don't know, but he was pushing his boundaries in some very major ways and being VERY obnoxious. NILIF came out of my toolbox and we went on a STRICT regime for a couple of weeks. He had to work for absolutely everything, whereas before working was selective - a sit for his leash, a down/wait for his food. It only took a few days of working for belly rubs, couch access, toys etc before he remembered just who wears the pants around here. We've relaxed again, have gone back to working for only certain things, but the NILIF tool is there for me should I ever need it again.

I wouldn't take a kid into a candy store and tell them to just help themselves to whatever they wanted, that I'd foot the bill. I'd ask them to help me in some small way and then provide them with the means to buy one thing of their choosing from the store. Same with a dog. NILIF allows for implementing small, frequent measures of even-keeled control. Patience with training a dog is a lot easier to come by when you don't have to come up with a means of "punishment" for disobeying a command when that suddenly happens....all you have to do is not reward, which to the dog (or at least, my dog) is the worst punishment there is.

what i like about NILIF is that it really doesnt matter, what type of dog (personality wise) you have. you can never be WRONG about using NILIF.
even if it doesnt address the problem you might be having with a dog, i'm pretty sure you wont make it worse by using NILIF...
 
plus it is just so easy to grasp and implement. it doesnt take more time out of your hands, so even really unmotivated people can do it, because it is more a thing you do in your daily routine...

I know this is an older topic but I just wondered if anyone could recommend a book that outlines the details of implementing NILIF.

It's so simple, it doesn't even need a book.

This website is the one that I usually see referenced and I like it a lot (so much that I have the URL memorized):

http://www.k9deb.com/nilif

Thanks! The NILIF concept seems pretty straight forward and simple....lets go shake things up around here[sm=whip.gif] These guys have been running the show for way too long!

These guys have been running the show for way too long!

Yes, A Tzu will certainly do that in a hurry if left to their own devices! 

Their sweet looks can be very deceiving!  My smallest Tzu, Sam, was raised with NILIF and he STILL pushes the envelope!  Little Booger....[sm=no%20no%20smiley.gif]

BTW: your guys are absolutely adorable!  Good Luck!

I sometimes call NILIF "Mother May I" with clients who are very anthropomorphic because "Nothing in Life is Free" as a title often has slightly authoritarian connotations and I want them to follow through. NILIF is about basic manners imo - any kid(s) I have in the future will likely be on a human form of NILIF lol and all my fosters are as well (tho limited to very basic request behaviors since they come to me with no reliable cues - 4 on the floor is the first request behavior here).

I too love the flexibiltiy of NILIF and I find it incredibly easy to implement - it's second nature for me and my personal dog now. This ease of implementation really helps my clients too because so often they think dog training is going to rule their life, when it should really be the other way around.

ORIGINAL: houndlove
I've heard people criticize NILIF for being too harsh and somehow cruel

Obviously they don't understand the concept. [sm=wink.gif] To me, NILIF is the antithesis of force. It's also beautifully simple, and as others have pointed out, can be used on any dog, from puppyhood on, and adapted to the circumstances. The dog always has the choice to comply, and the consequences are very clear. You want to eat dinner? Sit or down as commanded until released. Break, and you'll have to wait. Want to go for a walk? Sit calmly while the leash is put on, and then sit calmly at the door until released, or the leash gets put away and you don't get to go. Want attention? Bark your head off, jump up and down, but until you stop and sit calmly you are the invisible dog.

I start doing NILIF immediately with new puppies, and I think it prevents a lot of bad behavior from ever developing and having to be fixed later. As it turns out, my two current GSDs are pretty easy dogs, but the previous one, Cassidy, was a holy terror as a puppy. She was already 20 weeks old when we got her, a big strong puppy with no manners or training. I had to learn, FAST, how to deal with her, and NILIF was the answer. It's so easy to incorporate into everyday life so that it becomes a routine for everyone. The dogs know exactly what to expect, and so they comply without question or challenge. With Cassidy I took it a step further and did social isolation in addition to NILIF. The k9deb link that was posted has the social isolation info too. Basically I completely ignored her for two days - didn't look at her, talk to her, touch her, or acknowledge her existence in any way. She was practically doing backflips to get my attention by that point, so she was finally ready to do as I asked. For her, removal of attention was the most powerful punishment there was, so you can bet your behind I exploited that!

There was a really interesting article in the Whole Dog Journal (last year?) about leadership. It stated that ethology studies from the '70s and '80s suggest that canine social structure holds together because appeasement behaviors are offered by subordinate members, not because higher ranking members demand subservience. So training methods that encourage dogs to offer deference behaviors, and then reward them for it, are a much closer approximation of actual pack behavior than any application of force. The more they offer deferent behavior, the more deferent they become. Also, dominance established without resorting to aggression appears to be more stable than dominance maintained by constant vigilance and displays of strength. NILIF accomplishes this perfectly, by calmly controlling the good stuff.

So training methods that encourage dogs to offer deference behaviors, and then reward them for it, are a much closer approximation of actual pack behavior than any application of force. The more they offer deferent behavior, the more deferent they become.

I'm with you on that, it's how I perceive it, too. [] I am a leader to my dog only because she follows me. She follows me because she trusts that I will act in her best interests, so following me is safe and pleasurable for her. Sometimes that involves the use of subtle coercion, like NILIF, sometimes something more forceful like restraining her in the face of danger.

Obviously they don't understand the concept.

Perhaps. But I know people who want to have different kinds of relationships with their dogs than I want to have with mine. I can imagine having a non-NILIF based relationship with a dog, in some other context. I also know people with dogs who are so submissive and doting, that practicing NILIF would seem harsh and cruel and really really unnecessary!

When I'm with my non-dog-nerd friends and their dogs, they are always so impressed by Ixa's behavior, manners, how she responds to me. They are fascinated, but not the least bit interested in cultivating or maintaining that kind of relationship with their dogs. They might grumble a little about leash pulling and other mildly irritating stuff, but also accept it in the balance of their happy relationship with their animals. For some people, the chaos of a willful dog is one of life's pleasures that makes for a lively, happy home.

ORIGINAL: TinaK
Where that goes wrong, I think, is that in interpreting this, some owners end up rewarding a dog for doing SIT while it's standing on its toes with excitement, or, treating a dog while grooming when its overall state is tense or defensive... It is a good way to start working on behavioral issues, but I think if you never raise your expectations and keep on rewarding the action, you might be nurturing the undesired behavior underneath. Wonder if that's why NILIF is not effective for some people...

Yep, sometimes Ixa does that "butt up, on the edge of her toes" sit, which doesn't indicate compliance, to me. I don't want her sitting just for show, I want the calm "wait for it" mind state that comes with it. To me, NILIF is about teaching impulse control, that my judgment is more reliable than her impulses, and following me just feels better than following her own drives. This is how I earn her trust, and how she chooses me as her leader. She'd have to be nuts to follow me based on anything other than her confidence that my leadership is better for her than her own self leadership. She has to find that life feels calmer, safer and better when I'm the captain of our little ship.

Good post Ixas_girl. But I don't think that using NILIF necessarily creates robot dogs - mine certainly aren't perfect, and we do have episodes of chaos and willfulness. [sm=wink.gif] Even a well trained and behaved dog like yours that is highly responsive to you can be given permission to be goof off and just a dog if you so choose. Obviously a really doting and submissive dog doesn't need daily reminders of who the boss is, where a more dominant dog that's constantly pushing the envelope might need strict NILIF for life. I like to start out pretty strict when they're young and then ease up later as the situation dictates. I certainly don't want to have to beat my dogs (figuratively, of course) over the head with my elevated status, I want them to accept it without question, when I require it. But there are times when I don't really require it too.