"But she just did it to you!"

I gotta say, I can't think of any occaisions when one of my dogs has "corrected" me. Been distracted by things more interesting than me, yes. Been confused, definately. Every now and again chosen to not listen to me, yep. Can you furnish an example of a dog correcting his human? Maybe I just have amazingly special wonderful alien dogs (the thought has crossed my mind!)?

Why do we think that by us correcting a dog we are engraving mistrust?

 
Interesting.  I don't know how any human knows for a fact that it does engrave mistrust.  I don't think a proper correction can do any more damage than say disciplining a child.  There are times when a correction is needed and when administered properly should not be a relationship ending, complete crumbling of the dog's psyche.  Kids that are left to get their ways and act a fool need correcting as well.  I think we can all see that as we watch an episode of "Nanny 911".
 
Kinda along the same premise.....how do you think "Lassie" was trained?  Being it in the late 50's and early 60's I would guess pretty harshly.  Were any of the Lassies unstable, shutdown, mistrusting, or neurotic??  I don't know that, but by looking at her on screen one can perceive she looks pretty happy.  I've never heard horror stories about Lassie being afraid of her trainer/handler or of people in general.  It makes me think that maybe we read too much into dog/human relationships and become paranoid to do anything for fear it may cause some permanent breakdown or mistrust.
 
Many dog owners (myself included) have probably done things to their dog some people would consider harsh.  Maybe before we "knew better" or because that's how we learned to train our dogs.  If dogs become "ruined" by corrections we'd all have ruined, basketcase dogs.  I think they are thicker skinned than that.  
 
Bottom line is, I don't know how anybody knows this answer.  Surely, a dog that has been repeatedly abused will show signs and symptoms of mental anquish and stress.  But, for the people that give their dogs a leash correction, or use a bit harsher ways to train I don't know if their relationships with their dogs are worse than others. 
 
This makes me want to do some research on Lassie and dig a little deeper!   

I have come to the conclusion that we don't know everything about dogs because, well, they can't talk and tell us.
I have also come to the conclusion that all dogs are different, many different breeds show same character or behavior, but in essence it comes right back to the individuality of the dog and the owner dog relationship.
 
Many dogs trained a more traditional way are just as loyal and loving as dogs trained with other methods.
I have used leash correction, I am hands on, and I can guarantee my dogs trust me, heck, even in the most horrid thunderstorm while trying to fire up the generator, the dogs follow me and are right by my side.

ORIGINAL: TinaK
If a dog is correcting you, she doesn't think it will spoil your relationship. (?) Why do we think that by us correcting a dog we are engraving mistrust?

I think one reason is that our "corrections" are sometimes for things that would be considered normal dog behavior, and that just don't happen to fit in with a lifestyle in which the dog must acclimate to human demands.  Just an example...if a dog is jumping up, in his mind he is just trying to greet by doing what dogs do.  They sniff the side of the other dog's face.  So, your dog tries to get to your face.  Should you punish him for being polite?  Seems to me that it's the same as human customs.  If it's the norm for us to shake hands here, it might be the norm for people in other countries to bow, or hug.
You wouldn't push them away or step on their toes, or shove a knee in their chest, right?  You might simply find a way to tell them that, in this country, we prefer a handshake - when in Rome...  So, to me, training is all about nicely informing the dog that the custom here is that dogs sit for greeting humans. 

ORIGINAL: Mastiff

Why do we think that by us correcting a dog we are engraving mistrust?

Interesting.  I don't know how any human knows for a fact that it does engrave mistrust.  I don't think a proper correction can do any more damage than say disciplining a child.  There are times when a correction is needed and when administered properly should not be a relationship ending, complete crumbling of the dog's psyche.  Kids that are left to get their ways and act a fool need correcting as well.  I think we can all see that as we watch an episode of "Nanny 911".

Kinda along the same premise.....how do you think "Lassie" was trained?  Being it in the late 50's and early 60's I would guess pretty harshly.  Were any of the Lassies unstable, shutdown, mistrusting, or neurotic??  I don't know that, but by looking at her on screen one can perceive she looks pretty happy.  I've never heard horror stories about Lassie being afraid of her trainer/handler or of people in general.  It makes me think that maybe we read too much into dog/human relationships and become paranoid to do anything for fear it may cause some permanent breakdown or mistrust.

Many dog owners (myself included) have probably done things to their dog some people would consider harsh.  Maybe before we "knew better" or because that's how we learned to train our dogs.  If dogs become "ruined" by corrections we'd all have ruined, basketcase dogs.  I think they are thicker skinned than that.  

Bottom line is, I don't know how anybody knows this answer.  Surely, a dog that has been repeatedly abused will show signs and symptoms of mental anquish and stress.  But, for the people that give their dogs a leash correction, or use a bit harsher ways to train I don't know if their relationships with their dogs are worse than others. 

This makes me want to do some research on Lassie and dig a little deeper!   

This site has an email addy for Richard Weatherwax:
http://weatherwax.home.att.net/
He would probably be able to tell you about the past and present training methods they use.

This site has an email addy for Richard Weatherwax:
http://weatherwax.home.att.net/
He would probably be able to tell you about the past and present training methods they use.

 
Thanks for doing the work for me! I would be very interested in finding out how training the "Lassie's" of yesteryear would compare with how he would do it today.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

I gotta say, I can't think of any occaisions when one of my dogs has "corrected" me. Been distracted by things more interesting than me, yes. Been confused, definately. Every now and again chosen to not listen to me, yep. Can you furnish an example of a dog correcting his human? Maybe I just have amazingly special wonderful alien dogs (the thought has crossed my mind!)?

Well you can go to the aggression threads in the behavior forum and you will find  a couple threads about dogs nipping at their owners, and a lot more about strangers doing something the dog does not like them to do inside the owners house

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I think one reason is that our "corrections" are sometimes for things that would be considered normal dog behavior, and that just don't happen to fit in with a lifestyle in which the dog must acclimate to human demands.  Just an example...if a dog is jumping up, in his mind he is just trying to greet by doing what dogs do.  They sniff the side of the other dog's face.  So, your dog tries to get to your face.  Should you punish him for being polite?  Seems to me that it's the same as human customs.  If it's the norm for us to shake hands here, it might be the norm for people in other countries to bow, or hug.
You wouldn't push them away or step on their toes, or shove a knee in their chest, right?  You might simply find a way to tell them that, in this country, we prefer a handshake - when in Rome...  So, to me, training is all about nicely informing the dog that the custom here is that dogs sit for greeting humans. 

Anne you well know that a dog does not need to have his nose stick to your face to smell you, the more particular smell comes from the genital area, so they smell you more down there rather than the face since it provides more info about you

And yes, the dog is not being polite that way because is not respecting your personal space, just like when dogs dont like to receive hugs because the same reason, you dont see dogs all excited when they meet a new dog, even if they are you dont blame the other dog for growling back if he feels the excited dog should back off a little bit

So if a dog growls back to demand personal space and you dont blame him for that, then why you dont agree with humans corrections to demand the same?

So if a dog growls back to demand personal space and you dont blame him for that, then why you dont agree with humans corrections to demand the same?

 
 
That is a good question............

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: houndlove

I gotta say, I can't think of any occaisions when one of my dogs has "corrected" me. Been distracted by things more interesting than me, yes. Been confused, definately. Every now and again chosen to not listen to me, yep. Can you furnish an example of a dog correcting his human? Maybe I just have amazingly special wonderful alien dogs (the thought has crossed my mind!)?

Well you can go to the aggression threads in the behavior forum and you will find  a couple threads about dogs nipping at their owners, and a lot more about strangers doing something the dog does not like them to do inside the owners house

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I think one reason is that our "corrections" are sometimes for things that would be considered normal dog behavior, and that just don't happen to fit in with a lifestyle in which the dog must acclimate to human demands.  Just an example...if a dog is jumping up, in his mind he is just trying to greet by doing what dogs do.  They sniff the side of the other dog's face.  So, your dog tries to get to your face.  Should you punish him for being polite?  Seems to me that it's the same as human customs.  If it's the norm for us to shake hands here, it might be the norm for people in other countries to bow, or hug.
You wouldn't push them away or step on their toes, or shove a knee in their chest, right?  You might simply find a way to tell them that, in this country, we prefer a handshake - when in Rome...  So, to me, training is all about nicely informing the dog that the custom here is that dogs sit for greeting humans. 

Anne you well know that a dog does not need to have his nose stick to your face to smell you, the more particular smell comes from the genital area, so they smell you more down there rather than the face since it provides more info about you

And yes, the dog is not being polite that way because is not respecting your personal space, just like when dogs dont like to receive hugs because the same reason, you dont see dogs all excited when they meet a new dog, even if they are you dont blame the other dog for growling back if he feels the excited dog should back off a little bit

So if a dog growls back to demand personal space and you dont blame him for that, then why you dont agree with humans corrections to demand the same?

This has more to do with canine greeting ritual than with wanting to smell you.  Watch how dogs greet each other.  They sniff sides of head, they curve their bodies, they sniff butt.  It's a ritual.  Why would you assume that they are being pushy for trying the same ritual on another species?  They don't think of it that way - unless you have pushed at them or knee'd them, etc.  They interpret that behavior as play or aggression.  Don't read more into the dogs' intent than is there.

Why mold every sincle behavioral circumstance to fit the idea that the dog must be corrected and shown its place?  Why not attempt to train an incompatible behavior to the one you don't like and create a situation where the dog can be successful at learning how to greet appropriately?  I don't get it.

If a dog growls back at me, I assume that more than a personal space or greeting issue exists. That is a relationship issue, but I don't begin reconstructing a relationship by punishing physically.  I do it by controlling the dog's resources.  That's how he interprets leadership - who controls the resources?  So, I might hand feed the dog kibble by kibble...no access to anything he wants without doing something for me first.  Wanna go out?  Sit.  It's more than just a one time "correction", it's a lifestyle of benevolent leadership. "Calm and assertive" if you want to put it that way - I just don't use a lot of physical stuff to get to that place.

think one reason is that our "corrections" are sometimes for things that would be considered normal dog behavior, and that just don't happen to fit in with a lifestyle in which the dog must acclimate to human demands. Just an example...if a dog is jumping up, in his mind he is just trying to greet by doing what dogs do. They sniff the side of the other dog's face. So, your dog tries to get to your face. Should you punish him for being polite? Seems to me that it's the same as human customs. If it's the norm for us to shake hands here, it might be the norm for people in other countries to bow, or hug.
You wouldn't push them away or step on their toes, or shove a knee in their chest, right? You might simply find a way to tell them that, in this country, we prefer a handshake - when in Rome... So, to me, training is all about nicely informing the dog that the custom here is that dogs sit for greeting humans.

 
Most excellent, well-put. Either you're making more sense or I learned to read better. Probably the latter. And for the majority of dogs, you can simply coerce them into our accepted behavior with treat training, clickers, etc. They only have to be shown the way and they will follow it. There are of course, exceptions to every rule. Most people don't have the exception and most dogs are just, in fact, behaving as dogs and it is up to us to understand what they mean and learn how to shape their behavior so that it fits better in our world.
 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

This has more to do with canine greeting ritual than with wanting to smell you.  Watch how dogs greet each other.  They sniff sides of head, they curve their bodies, they sniff butt.  It's a ritual.  Why would you assume that they are being pushy for trying the same ritual on another species?  They don't think of it that way - unless you have pushed at them or knee'd them, etc.  They interpret that behavior as play or aggression.  Don't read more into the dogs' intent than is there.

Again, dogs demand personal space, yes dogs smell each other, now, have you seen a dog on top of another while greeting? have you seen a dog jumping on another while doing it? can i come to your dogs and start smelling them while i have my two hands on top of them and jumping all around? because when a dog does that to me it seems that is fine with you, a non pushy dog smells me just like if i was another dog, he smells my leg to know where i was  and thats a perfect greeting, not jumping to say "hi".

So i ask you, when dogs greet eachother do they jump and are on top of eachother while are all excited? can i come to you and everytime i see you i start jumping all around and hug you? or you will feel overwhelmed for being too close to you?

We as humans hug eachother all the time, we know dogs dont like to be hugged, but hugging is a human ritual, so should dogs have to put up with it even when they dont like it? because it sems that we have to put up with their "rituals" even if we dont like them (and by "rituals" i mean being pushy without respecting personal space)

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Why mold every sincle behavioral circumstance to fit the idea that the dog must be corrected and shown its place?  Why not attempt to train an incompatible behavior to the one you don't like and create a situation where the dog can be successful at learning how to greet appropriately?  I don't get it.

You need to let go the idea that correction means physical punisment, a correction can be a body block, a correction can be a sound, a correction can be a look, a correction can be a finger's snap, if you snap your fingers i assure you that he is not going to have a huge mental trauma for the rest of his life, he is just going to realize that he was doing something that you didnt appreciate, as simple as that, it seems that if you see your dog greeting in a way you dont like then you put on your combat helmet, seat on the table to draw blue prints, drink a lot of coffee to stay awake, take out the miniature models to plan the strategy, syncronize your watch, put on your stealth custome and when you are ready everyone else is already in bed sleeping, just relax Anne, nothing bad is going to happen if you just snap your fingers at your dog, i promise []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
If a dog growls back at me, I assume that more than a personal space or greeting issue exists. That is a relationship issue

No, wait, you are taking this to another different sitaution, one thing is me demanding personal space just like when dogs do it at eachother and a different one is a dog growling at his owner, lets back on track, dogs growl back at eachother when they are doing something they dont like other dogs to do at them right? why the hell i cant do the same? my way of growling like i said before would be a look, body block, etc. Are dogs having a huge trauma when another dog growled at them for personal space? then why if i do the same you think is wrong?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
I do it by controlling the dog's resources.  That's how he interprets leadership - who controls the resources?  So, I might hand feed the dog kibble by kibble...no access to anything he wants without doing something for me first.  Wanna go out?  Sit.  It's more than just a one time "correction", it's a lifestyle of benevolent leadership. "Calm and assertive" if you want to put it that way - I just don't use a lot of physical stuff to get to that place.

And i do the same, you are exchanging one good thing for another in those situations, "you want this, give me this first", NILIF is great, i just dont think is fair that if my dog gives me a bad thing i should reward her for stop doing it, that will just show her that if she wants something good she just needs to do something bad first to get it "hey i want a treat, i should eat the pillows first, at the count of 3 i'm going to eat the pillooooooows, where is my treeeeeat?"

I gotta say, I can't think of any occaisions when one of my dogs has "corrected" me. Been distracted by things more interesting than me, yes. Been confused, definately. Every now and again chosen to not listen to me, yep. Can you furnish an example of a dog correcting his human? Maybe I just have amazingly special wonderful alien dogs (the thought has crossed my mind!)?

I don't mean a dog biting you in the face to "correct". A bite is just an extreme case... The word 'correction' is so loaded... By correction I simply mean a sound, a certain movement, a combination of all of the above... Slamming, jumping up with stiff legs (not a happy - "yey"-type of jump), other hyperactive activity directed to physically get you to do something... or, get you to listen to the dog's demands. These are clear signals that a dog gives you - "Stop what you're doing, do that instead." "Go that way." "Not now", etc.

Looking at dogs communicating with each another, they can't take a step out of a context they are in to 'train' one another. They just live together, like every minute is a course on obedience and agility. Their communication is clear, every movement and every stare is meaningful and honest. They learn and are being 'conditioned' by one another all the time (growl means back off, etc.). This is their "training", it's constant and consistent. To me, popular 'dog training', unfortunately, doesn't emphasize that attitude. Or, maybe trainers sense it and understand it - but how do they get that through to their students - humans, that's the trick! One of the reasons I respect CM is because he taps into this... the whole idea that "training" is always happening... you don't even need to call it training... just call it living. You don't need to get the right gear out, know the *method*, etc.

I would never use "corrections" to teach my dog to SIT on cue or to put toys in a basket... of course not. But, I think there are behaviors that dogs inherently have a sense about... "I am sleep, don't wake me up." "I am busy doing X, I am concentrating" "Not now" "I want your attention" "I've had enough of playing", etc. Not sure how to call these things, but I am sure you don't have to "train" train dogs to respect you doing them... Ah... I m rambling.

One other thing I don't understand is why "physical" should always mean 'negative'. I read people say: wouldn't it be wonderful if we could teach dogs A,B,C using X, and not be physical. Why not? A touch can mean a million things -to dogs. It's more important and more meaningful for them than it is for us, humans, who rely heavily on language, and for who physical in communication mostly means aggressive...Puppies need close *physical* contact with their mates and their mom - for healthy development. Physical touch can be a direction, relaxation, communication, etc.

I think one reason is that our "corrections" are sometimes for things that would be considered normal dog behavior...You might simply find a way to tell them that, in this country, we prefer a handshake - when in Rome... So, to me, training is all about nicely informing the dog that the custom here is that dogs sit for greeting humans.

A dog might say: "OK, I see how you do it in this country, but they way we do it in Rome gets me further to what I want." []

By correction I simply mean a sound, a certain movement, a combination of all of the above... Slamming, jumping up with stiff legs (not a happy - "yey"-type of jump), other hyperactive activity directed to physically get you to do something... or, get you to listen to the dog's demands.

Okay, that settles it, I have alien dogs. They really honestly don't do this kind of stuff. When they want something from me, they know the only way to get it is to either sit or down and wait. And Marlowe for some reason breathes heavily. [&:] Like all dogs, they do what works. With one another, what works is different than what works with me. But a week in my house and every dog I've ever had has realized that a different set of rules apply to getting what they want from the humans than from the other dogs that are around. To me, NILIF fits the bill perfectly here. It also isn't "training" but a "lifestyle"--it's always happening and it teaches dogs in "real time" what does and does not work for getting what they want from humans.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

By correction I simply mean a sound, a certain movement, a combination of all of the above... Slamming, jumping up with stiff legs (not a happy - "yey"-type of jump), other hyperactive activity directed to physically get you to do something... or, get you to listen to the dog's demands.

Okay, that settles it, I have alien dogs.

No, you have well behaved dogs! I've seen "alien" dogs like that [] [] .